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Rank the Retcons

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 23 Aug 2018, 20:16

P-90 wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 17:54
Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 15:58
I mean that’s kind of the weakest argument against the change...don’t do it because it’s already enough lgbt characters. Like that’s a horrible reasoning to not take action on diversification in just about any situation lol

I can understand the above reasoning from RingO and SK because I can relate to (not personally) people who would behave like Bobby sans them being closeted as well. But he shouldn’t be gay or bisexual because you already got gay/bisexual characters is just...not to be rude or mean...weak sauce lol
That's clearly not what I mean't but thanks for being so open minded :roll:
Your sarcasm and use of the “you’re not really open—minded” trope is a bit of an unnecessary overreaction (as well as tired) too but your previous words don’t match what you’re now saying. You didn’t say what SK said. How were we to know that’s what you meant when you didn’t say it?

So we responded to what you actually said. And I stand by the assessment that it’s a weak argument to say “it’s already some so no need for more”.

I do agree though that the way Bendis exposed Bobby’s secret was foul and think the creation of new lgbt characters would be dope.

But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
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MartijnB
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by MartijnB » 23 Aug 2018, 20:28

out of interest, I haven't read the story about Iceman's homosexuality myself

How was it played? Was our Bobby-616 always fully aware of his own homosexuality and was it basically a secret he carried with him throughout all those issues the past few decades? Or was he in denial even towards himself, and was seeing teen Bobby out himself a trigger for Bobby-616 to finally explore his own sexuality?

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 23 Aug 2018, 20:31

[quote=Blackcyclops post_id=176846 time=1535039897


But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
[/quote]

THIS.

Not just that, but where are our prominent LGBTQ heroes? Iceman is a character with a LOT of connections to the wider Marvel universe beyond the X-Men. Having him as a recently out gay male is a vast difference from someone like Karma, Rictor or Shatterstar in that it’s news that would impact far more people.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by EphemeristX » 23 Aug 2018, 20:56

MartijnB wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:28
out of interest, I haven't read the story about Iceman's homosexuality myself

How was it played? Was our Bobby-616 always fully aware of his own homosexuality and was it basically a secret he carried with him throughout all those issues the past few decades? Or was he in denial even towards himself, and was seeing teen Bobby out himself a trigger for Bobby-616 to finally explore his own sexuality?
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Spectral Knight » 23 Aug 2018, 22:14

Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:16

But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
That's true. It's certainly a worthy story beat, but I just wasn't sure if was Bobby's story. Comic fiction is difficult as for so long with thought bubbles we saw "into" characters' inner thoughts/ feelings. With that it's probably easier to reveal a relatively newer character's true sexuality rather than retcon an existing one (The use of inner monologues appears to have faded, much like most third party narration), but that character might well not be as prominent as Iceman is.

Which brings me onto...
das_boot wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:31
Not just that, but where are our prominent LGBTQ heroes? Iceman is a character with a LOT of connections to the wider Marvel universe beyond the X-Men. Having him as a recently out gay male is a vast difference from someone like Karma, Rictor or Shatterstar in that it’s news that would impact far more people.
Pretty much agree but there's a story telling challenge in "outing" a prominent existing character who's shown to have had hetero feelings (not failed relationships which you rightly argued can and does happen as part of self-discovery), only because we the reader have seen into their thoughts... it also doesn't really tie in with the amount of telepaths Bobby has worked with over the last 15 years ish of comic time for it not to have ever really come up in a discreet conversation before teen Jean. Or a less than discreet conversation if we're talking bitchy Emma Frost...

I do think there should be prominent LGBT representation, and I see the creative challenge in addressing the representation gap. Hell, I thought Greymalkin had a brilliant opportunity to tell a man out of time story that'd be extremely compelling where sexuality is a large part of that story but isn't the sum and substance of adjustment to a different world. Personal view is that some of the good non-hetero B-list / C-list characters can be "promoted" to an A team and given further development rather than shoe horn more new characters.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 23 Aug 2018, 22:31

Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:16
P-90 wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 17:54
Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 15:58
I mean that’s kind of the weakest argument against the change...don’t do it because it’s already enough lgbt characters. Like that’s a horrible reasoning to not take action on diversification in just about any situation lol

I can understand the above reasoning from RingO and SK because I can relate to (not personally) people who would behave like Bobby sans them being closeted as well. But he shouldn’t be gay or bisexual because you already got gay/bisexual characters is just...not to be rude or mean...weak sauce lol
That's clearly not what I mean't but thanks for being so open minded :roll:
Your sarcasm and use of the “you’re not really open—minded” trope is a bit of an unnecessary overreaction (as well as tired) too but your previous words don’t match what you’re now saying. You didn’t say what SK said. How were we to know that’s what you meant when you didn’t say it?

So we responded to what you actually said. And I stand by the assessment that it’s a weak argument to say “it’s already some so no need for more”.

I do agree though that the way Bendis exposed Bobby’s secret was foul and think the creation of new lgbt characters would be dope.

But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
No, you chose to assume a meaning different to the words that were actually posted, you were wrong, it's not a big deal, just own it.

Again that's is not what I meant in any way.

Not only was Bobby's 'outing' terribly handled by Bendis, he did it knowing full well it would PO the fans and then justified that arrogance with the typical 'if you don't like it, you're just a bigot' mentality. Not every disagreement with or dislike of something has to be based on an 'ism'

Comic books do tend to draw in people who can be very possessive over their favourite characters and can be obsessive over even the smallest detail, most readers begin their love affair with comic books at a very emotionally formative time in their lives (it's why people tend to stay fans of the music/bands they discovered in their teens throughout their entire lives) so not wanting a character they've grown up with changed doesn't in any way mean they're against what the change is, they're just against the change itself. (For instance back in the nineties when Ben Reilly took over as Spider-Man the fans still wanted Peter back and Ben was a literally clone of Peter)
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 23 Aug 2018, 22:34

das_boot wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:31
[quote=Blackcyclops post_id=176846 time=1535039897


But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
THIS.

Not just that, but where are our prominent LGBTQ heroes? Iceman is a character with a LOT of connections to the wider Marvel universe beyond the X-Men. Having him as a recently out gay male is a vast difference from someone like Karma, Rictor or Shatterstar in that it’s news that would impact far more people.
[/quote]

I thought it would be a good idea to keep the young Bobby gay but leave 616 Bobby as he was, if nothing else that would have made for some great awkwardness and banter between the two.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Aug 2018, 01:26

Spectral Knight wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 22:14
Blackcyclops wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:16

But none of that changes the fact that finding out a long time thought to be hetero hero isn’t hetero is also a story worthy of being done. Because that’s also somebody’s story and deserves to be told...
That's true. It's certainly a worthy story beat, but I just wasn't sure if was Bobby's story. Comic fiction is difficult as for so long with thought bubbles we saw "into" characters' inner thoughts/ feelings. With that it's probably easier to reveal a relatively newer character's true sexuality rather than retcon an existing one (The use of inner monologues appears to have faded, much like most third party narration), but that character might well not be as prominent as Iceman is.

Which brings me onto...
das_boot wrote:
23 Aug 2018, 20:31
Not just that, but where are our prominent LGBTQ heroes? Iceman is a character with a LOT of connections to the wider Marvel universe beyond the X-Men. Having him as a recently out gay male is a vast difference from someone like Karma, Rictor or Shatterstar in that it’s news that would impact far more people.
Pretty much agree but there's a story telling challenge in "outing" a prominent existing character who's shown to have had hetero feelings (not failed relationships which you rightly argued can and does happen as part of self-discovery), only because we the reader have seen into their thoughts... it also doesn't really tie in with the amount of telepaths Bobby has worked with over the last 15 years ish of comic time for it not to have ever really come up in a discreet conversation before teen Jean. Or a less than discreet conversation if we're talking bitchy Emma Frost...

I do think there should be prominent LGBT representation, and I see the creative challenge in addressing the representation gap. Hell, I thought Greymalkin had a brilliant opportunity to tell a man out of time story that'd be extremely compelling where sexuality is a large part of that story but isn't the sum and substance of adjustment to a different world. Personal view is that some of the good non-hetero B-list / C-list characters can be "promoted" to an A team and given further development rather than shoe horn more new characters.
I can see your point toward me SK...I can see the logic behind Bobby’s coming out but I could see it being done with a number of male and female characters. Personally I know other A-list histories who I COULD see having a much more interesting coming out.

But you know what? As rocky as Bobby’s start was, what happened in his solo series was so authentic and engrossing that I’m okay with it now.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 24 Aug 2018, 03:40

Bobby has been drastically more interesting for stories since his coming out.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 24 Aug 2018, 10:51

tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 03:40
Bobby has been drastically more interesting for stories since his coming out.
This.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 24 Aug 2018, 15:41

It's also something that can't really be done with a new character either BECAUSE of the fact Bobby went so long pushing down his homosexuality. Bobby coming out suddenly gives us stories not just about him coming to terms with it, but his friends and family as well.

Like I said, I've never had a problem with the retcon. It was just handled poorly. Most of that has to do with the writer though. Not that I could have made a better story.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 24 Aug 2018, 16:00

@P-90— your point about young Bobby being gay and old Bobby not being gay doesn’t work— they’re the same person. We saw this in BOTA when young Cyclops was temporarily killed and our Cyclops just vanished from existence. It’s the largest problem (in my eyes) for the O5 being in the present— we KNOW they’re never at risk of dying because if they do, their present-day version doesn’t exist. The teen versions of these characters ARE our version of these characters— realistically from a perspective of time travel, the O5 ALWAYS travelled to the present day and ALWAYS had these experiences, but somehow don’t know about them, which I’m guessing is the entire point of EXtermination— getting them back to their own time unaltered and with no memory of their time here in order for the timeline to remain intact. The only other option is that they go back to their time knowing what they know of their future, including how to use their powers better, and their versions in the present suddenly have strange upgrades to their own power set... perhaps Jean being a more accomplished telepath as she learned how to to use this power far earlier, or Beast having more of an inclination towards magic, or Iceman ALWAYS having dated men and so is more self-assured in his sexuality.

Whatever happens to finish off EXtermination, we know that if they did always have this knowledge of the future, then our time line’s O5 would have always known what was coming and always known Bobby was gay, that Jean and Cyclops would die etc
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Wings » 24 Aug 2018, 16:28

Lobdell did some good work with him (expanding his powers, dealing with the bigotry (towards mutants and others) of his father, developing a mentor/student relationship between Bobby and Emma Frost, developing close frendships with Rogue and Cannonball, having him lead a team during Operation Zero Tolerance etc

Carey did some good work with him leading up to Messiah CompleX and then seemed to lose interest in using him.

I'm on the side of the Iceman retcon. Like others, I've known people in Bobby's situation. Even the thought bubbles in the past doesn't affect in my view. From the way Bendis wrote it (which was an atrocious sledgehammer of a way to introduce the idea, even though I had no issues with the premise of Bobby as a gay man ) it seemed Bobby had come to terms with the fact he was gay even if he wasn't willing to act on it or tell others, but I imagine he didn't come to that realisation until after he had broken up with Shadowcat. (While I don't give Bendis credit for this, it also explains why Bobby was such a grump during the Matthew Malloy mess if his realisation occured just prior to that storyline.) I assumed I was straight, had "straight thoughts" up until I realised I was attracted to men as well, for Bobby this process of not recognising/repressing his sexual and romantic attraction to men simply lasted much longer. It doesn't invalidate his previous thoughts or relationships/expressed interest in women, but once he realised his feelings towards men, he was able to look at his feelings and discover that his feelings towards women did not compare and were not he previously believed them to be.

As for the telepaths, Psylocke, Cable and Quentin Quire wouldn't care enough to delve that deep into Bobby's head, Emma would be very sensitive about the issue given that Christian Frost's outing ended with their father placing him in a mental institution, grownup Jean would not have betrayed Bobby's confidence by telling him she knew even if she did and would trust that he'd come to her if he wanted to, Rachel would have wanted to follow her mother's example and Xavier, like Jean might not have wanted to interfere.


I liked Carey's retcon involving Xavier and Rogue, as well his retcon regarding Xavier and his efforts to free Danger instead of sadistically keeping a consciousness shackled in order to train his students. The Sage as X-Men spy retcon didn't work, which is worse considering Claremont was the one who wrote most of Sage's appearances prior to the revelation.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Nu-D » 24 Aug 2018, 16:29

tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 15:41
It's also something that can't really be done with a new character either BECAUSE of the fact Bobby went so long pushing down his homosexuality. Bobby coming out suddenly gives us stories not just about him coming to terms with it, but his friends and family as well.

Like I said, I've never had a problem with the retcon. It was just handled poorly. Most of that has to do with the writer though. Not that I could have made a better story.
Yes, this. A new character desn’t have the same potential for telling stories about coming out to people who’ve known him/her for years. I have a 30-something acquaintance who just came out to her 94-year-old grandfather, and is having a rather rough time of it. These stories and experiences can be shared through Bobby in a way they couldn’t be shared through, say, Goldballs.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by WonderDoug » 25 Aug 2018, 04:16

I am all for the Iceman Gay retcon. I've also known plenty of people that didn't come out until later in life because of various reasons. And I've known plenty of people who will never come out. I think Bobby coming out later in life and figuring it out as he goes is probably really cool to some readers who didn't have that in an A lister before.

Plus we've been told Bobbys entire career that he had great power potential but something was holding him back.


Other Retcons?
I was not a fan of Bendis treatment of Scarlet Witch in Disassembled.
Not a fan of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver not being Magnetos children.
Not a fan of the Draco storyline
Not a fan of anything Austin did honestly.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Aug 2018, 05:20

I’m prolly the only poster who likes the change for Wanda and Pietro...and it’s for three reasons: 1)it makes their connection as twins even more bizarre, 2)it makes all their shenanigans with Magneto seem even more mindbending and zany and 3)it makes Polaris Mag’s true living child and idk I like that alot...
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 25 Aug 2018, 06:40

I don't understand 1 or 3.

Wanda and Pietro being Mag's kids doesn't change either of those.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Aug 2018, 11:02

tokenBG1009 wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 06:40
I don't understand 1 or 3.

Wanda and Pietro being Mag's kids doesn't change either of those.
Let me explain (I was intoxicated last nite, so sorry Token):
1) what I mean is that they can be siblings and not be in the shadow of Magneto and frees up their twin-connection to have to stand outaide of him and his gravitational pull...plus it gave Wanda a connection to a mother that I really really liked in her solo series
3) by being the only kid of Magneto, it gives Polaris a special place in his life and in the larger MU and makes her special in that regard.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Aug 2018, 11:04

I preferred the retcon where they were Magneto's kids - and how his crusades ruined any potential for a relationship between him and his children (tragic soap opera drama at its finest). Not a fan of them not being his children myself.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Aug 2018, 11:14

I liked it better when they weren’t his but children of OG heroes but hey, we can all love our Wanda and Pietro retcon, there’s enough to go around lol
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Spectral Knight » 25 Aug 2018, 11:24

True, one of the messiest and most convoluted parentage stories going.

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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by tokenBG1009 » 25 Aug 2018, 11:32

Blackcyclops wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 11:02
tokenBG1009 wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 06:40
I don't understand 1 or 3.

Wanda and Pietro being Mag's kids doesn't change either of those.
Let me explain (I was intoxicated last nite, so sorry Token):
1) what I mean is that they can be siblings and not be in the shadow of Magneto and frees up their twin-connection to have to stand outaide of him and his gravitational pull...plus it gave Wanda a connection to a mother that I really really liked in her solo series
3) by being the only kid of Magneto, it gives Polaris a special place in his life and in the larger MU and makes her special in that regard.
The idea of you intoxicated is something that's just a foreign concept in my mind. I do understand your points more though.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by P-90 » 25 Aug 2018, 13:54

das_boot wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 16:00
@P-90— your point about young Bobby being gay and old Bobby not being gay doesn’t work— they’re the same person. We saw this in BOTA when young Cyclops was temporarily killed and our Cyclops just vanished from existence. It’s the largest problem (in my eyes) for the O5 being in the present— we KNOW they’re never at risk of dying because if they do, their present-day version doesn’t exist. The teen versions of these characters ARE our version of these characters— realistically from a perspective of time travel, the O5 ALWAYS travelled to the present day and ALWAYS had these experiences, but somehow don’t know about them, which I’m guessing is the entire point of EXtermination— getting them back to their own time unaltered and with no memory of their time here in order for the timeline to remain intact. The only other option is that they go back to their time knowing what they know of their future, including how to use their powers better, and their versions in the present suddenly have strange upgrades to their own power set... perhaps Jean being a more accomplished telepath as she learned how to to use this power far earlier, or Beast having more of an inclination towards magic, or Iceman ALWAYS having dated men and so is more self-assured in his sexuality.

Whatever happens to finish off EXtermination, we know that if they did always have this knowledge of the future, then our time line’s O5 would have always known what was coming and always known Bobby was gay, that Jean and Cyclops would die etc
I know they're supposed to be 'our' X-Men but that wasn't confirmed for a while, to me it would have been better for them to be from an alternate/diverging timeline given all the changes to the characters. It will be interesting to see how the writers work around this problem.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by das_boot » 25 Aug 2018, 14:26

P-90– it was confirmed in Battle of the Atom. Barely six months after the O5 debuted.
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Re: Rank the Retcons

Post by Cable » 25 Aug 2018, 14:34

das_boot wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 14:26
P-90– it was confirmed in Battle of the Atom. Barely six months after the O5 debuted.
But it was unconfirmed in All-New X-Men when Hopeless solved the dilemma by having Beast take them back to the past only to find versions of the Prime X-Men already there, meaning the young O5 are actually no longer connected to our present. Bunn then decided to #&$* it up again for no reason so it is once again an unsolvable mess.
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