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Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Anna Raven » 16 Dec 2016, 00:06

Cyke wrote:Well, all I can say is, having never read any of WaTX, I'm still unsure if I want to after reading all the comments here. lol
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by tokenBG1009 » 16 Dec 2016, 05:16

Cable wrote:
Blackcyclops wrote:
But I guess if you just are anti-cute things in this world like Cable, then no changing your mind *goes to watch Monsters Inc to see adorable Lil Boo again*.

lmao! Would this also be the right time to say I hate the Bamfs too? (which while originally a Claremont fantasy creation were brought to life for god knows what reason in Aaron's WatXM). Though I would like to have a plushy one like Kitty had.
We will fight. The bamfs are adorable and need to be around more.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Dec 2016, 11:45

So one thing I learned from this thread (besides that Cable is a monster), is that there's a firm delineation between fans of cute and haters of cute. Cool.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Gremlin » 16 Dec 2016, 18:50

The major turn off for WATXM was the art. I really don't like Bachelo and he was prominent in it. I dug a lot of the new characters introduced early on but some were pushed to the side when the likes of Shark Girl came along (not a fan).
Arcs like the Murder Circus were pointless and I HATED the Hellfire brats. I find the concept of father-killing phycho childen really stupid. If they were 18-20 I would get it but when they were portrayed as 10-12 year olds acting like fully grown adults with the likes of Sauron, Mystique and such working with them it was just way off for me. And don't get me started on Oya's BDSM outfit...I know it was a homage but still...

Aaron did do some cool things like use the newly created Broo and flesh him into an interesting character. And I dug the Toad/Husk romance because it was so out there.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Nu-D » 16 Dec 2016, 18:54

I have zero interest in the All-New All-Goofy X-Men. Even as a kid I despised nearly all of Marvel's ventures into goofiness. Two exceptions: Uncanny X-Men #244 and #245; they had just the right touch of adventure, soap opera and comedy all mixed up. Anything sillier and I was *and remain) totally uninterested.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Magik84 » 16 Dec 2016, 19:47

I enjoyed it a lot on first reading, on second reading a little less, mostly from the second half after circus story (like many have said). Vol. 2 and Spiderman and the X-Men I could have done without, Amazing X-Men was the better continuation and still had fun, had a lot of the same (teacher) characters and it also tied up plots that started in WATXM such as the bamfs successfully.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-

Post by Blackcyclops » 16 Dec 2016, 20:14

Magik84 wrote:I enjoyed it a lot on first reading, on second reading a little less, mostly from the second half after circus story (like many have said). Vol. 2 and Spiderman and the X-Men I could have done without, Amazing X-Men was the better continuation and still had fun, had a lot of the same (teacher) characters and it also tied up plots that started in WATXM such as the successfully.
Certainly agree with that last part...As Cable said, Latour was ambitions but fell very short.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 08 Jun 2019, 16:28

I disliked it immensely. While I don't mind occasional silliness, or even being the main thing of a side title (see Deadpool), this was too much for a book that was supposed the flagship of the X-line (and yes, it was at the time, until Bendis took over) with a premise that is unbelievable in the first place- Wolverine becoming the new Professor Xavier, and everyone else thinking it was a good idea, so much no one cares when he's revealed to be running a death squad behind their backs, while they were up in arms when Cyclops did the same in a worse situation for mankind.

Also, there's few things worse for the X-men that this "the school is the whole world" approach, even more considering it was a regression after moving to San Francisco. and also by the fact Marvel actively wanted us to support these guys while the Extinction team (later on, Cyclops crew), that was busy actually saving the world and doing stuff, were supposed to be the bad guys.

Add that to the fact that Aaron's villains were ridiculous, and him liking some annoying characters too much (Quentin Quire, the Hellfire Brats), and you have one of the worst X-men books ever, IMO. Granted, it's not Austen or Guggenheim, but for me this was a failure at every level.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by P-90 » 09 Jun 2019, 13:16

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
08 Jun 2019, 16:28
I disliked it immensely. While I don't mind occasional silliness, or even being the main thing of a side title (see Deadpool), this was too much for a book that was supposed the flagship of the X-line (and yes, it was at the time, until Bendis took over) with a premise that is unbelievable in the first place- Wolverine becoming the new Professor Xavier, and everyone else thinking it was a good idea, so much no one cares when he's revealed to be running a death squad behind their backs, while they were up in arms when Cyclops did the same in a worse situation for mankind.

Also, there's few things worse for the X-men that this "the school is the whole world" approach, even more considering it was a regression after moving to San Francisco. and also by the fact Marvel actively wanted us to support these guys while the Extinction team (later on, Cyclops crew), that was busy actually saving the world and doing stuff, were supposed to be the bad guys.

Add that to the fact that Aaron's villains were ridiculous, and him liking some annoying characters too much (Quentin Quire, the Hellfire Brats), and you have one of the worst X-men books ever, IMO. Granted, it's not Austen or Guggenheim, but for me this was a failure at every level.
It wasn't great but it definitely wasn't bad and personally I liked it far more than what crazy Cyclops was doing at the time. Cyke was acting in a way that was completely opposite to what he'd believed in and fought for his entire life (and when the most interesting character on his team is Goldballs you know there's a problem :) )
I know you dislike Wolverine but look at it this way, he stepped up when nobody else did and given his history and experience of war it's not really surprising he wanted to protect the X-kids and not turn them into a paramilitary unit. Also, I may be alone in this but I kind of liked that the school grounds were protected by Krakoa Jnr, I thought it was fun.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 09 Jun 2019, 19:42

P-90 wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 13:16
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
08 Jun 2019, 16:28
I disliked it immensely. While I don't mind occasional silliness, or even being the main thing of a side title (see Deadpool), this was too much for a book that was supposed the flagship of the X-line (and yes, it was at the time, until Bendis took over) with a premise that is unbelievable in the first place- Wolverine becoming the new Professor Xavier, and everyone else thinking it was a good idea, so much no one cares when he's revealed to be running a death squad behind their backs, while they were up in arms when Cyclops did the same in a worse situation for mankind.

Also, there's few things worse for the X-men that this "the school is the whole world" approach, even more considering it was a regression after moving to San Francisco. and also by the fact Marvel actively wanted us to support these guys while the Extinction team (later on, Cyclops crew), that was busy actually saving the world and doing stuff, were supposed to be the bad guys.

Add that to the fact that Aaron's villains were ridiculous, and him liking some annoying characters too much (Quentin Quire, the Hellfire Brats), and you have one of the worst X-men books ever, IMO. Granted, it's not Austen or Guggenheim, but for me this was a failure at every level.
It wasn't great but it definitely wasn't bad and personally I liked it far more than what crazy Cyclops was doing at the time. Cyke was acting in a way that was completely opposite to what he'd believed in and fought for his entire life (and when the most interesting character on his team is Goldballs you know there's a problem :) )
I know you dislike Wolverine but look at it this way, he stepped up when nobody else did and given his history and experience of war it's not really surprising he wanted to protect the X-kids and not turn them into a paramilitary unit. Also, I may be alone in this but I kind of liked that the school grounds were protected by Krakoa Jnr, I thought it was fun.
First of all, I love Wolverine when written well. That applies to most of CC's classic run, Morrison, Whedon, etc. In Schism and WatXm, he was anything but.

You know who started "kids as a paramilitary unit" thing? Charles Xavier. Who were the first members? Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, Beast and Jean Grey. And there were no older, more seasoned people leading them in the field.

So, the idea of using Jean Grey's name in a school supposedly honoring Xavier's tradition of pacificism is already incredibly hypocritical, and having Logan be the one preach peace and love while he's running a death squad is even worse. The book had a premise that doesn't work if you think for 5 seconds, and the execution was terrible.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by P-90 » 09 Jun 2019, 20:12

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 19:42
P-90 wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 13:16
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
08 Jun 2019, 16:28
I disliked it immensely. While I don't mind occasional silliness, or even being the main thing of a side title (see Deadpool), this was too much for a book that was supposed the flagship of the X-line (and yes, it was at the time, until Bendis took over) with a premise that is unbelievable in the first place- Wolverine becoming the new Professor Xavier, and everyone else thinking it was a good idea, so much no one cares when he's revealed to be running a death squad behind their backs, while they were up in arms when Cyclops did the same in a worse situation for mankind.

Also, there's few things worse for the X-men that this "the school is the whole world" approach, even more considering it was a regression after moving to San Francisco. and also by the fact Marvel actively wanted us to support these guys while the Extinction team (later on, Cyclops crew), that was busy actually saving the world and doing stuff, were supposed to be the bad guys.

Add that to the fact that Aaron's villains were ridiculous, and him liking some annoying characters too much (Quentin Quire, the Hellfire Brats), and you have one of the worst X-men books ever, IMO. Granted, it's not Austen or Guggenheim, but for me this was a failure at every level.
It wasn't great but it definitely wasn't bad and personally I liked it far more than what crazy Cyclops was doing at the time. Cyke was acting in a way that was completely opposite to what he'd believed in and fought for his entire life (and when the most interesting character on his team is Goldballs you know there's a problem :) )
I know you dislike Wolverine but look at it this way, he stepped up when nobody else did and given his history and experience of war it's not really surprising he wanted to protect the X-kids and not turn them into a paramilitary unit. Also, I may be alone in this but I kind of liked that the school grounds were protected by Krakoa Jnr, I thought it was fun.
First of all, I love Wolverine when written well. That applies to most of CC's classic run, Morrison, Whedon, etc. In Schism and WatXm, he was anything but.

You know who started "kids as a paramilitary unit" thing? Charles Xavier. Who were the first members? Cyclops, Iceman, Angel, Beast and Jean Grey. And there were no older, more seasoned people leading them in the field.

So, the idea of using Jean Grey's name in a school supposedly honoring Xavier's tradition of pacificism is already incredibly hypocritical, and having Logan be the one preach peace and love while he's running a death squad is even worse. The book had a premise that doesn't work if you think for 5 seconds, and the execution was terrible.
I don't think it was hypocritical, he wasn't denying that violent action is sometimes necessary just that it shouldn't be innocent kids who do so. As I said, as someone who's lived through multiple wars and seen the effect such violence has on people I for one can completely understand his stance on not wanting to turn the current crop of X-kids into a paramilitary unit. He wasn't really preaching peace, love and pacifism he was trying to spare a whole generation of mutant kids from the horrors of war. Also, for the most part the members on X-Force had already had extensive experience with such violence and even then he pretty much kicked X-23 out of the group saying she shouldn't have to deal with it, she still had a chance of a life outside of being a weapon. Logan was once again taking it upon himself to do the necessary evils that needed to be done so that others didn't have too.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 09 Jun 2019, 20:20

Well, maybe it's just me, but I don't like to see my favorite characters become hypocrites.

Also, the problem is that, sooner or later, the X-men kids have to fight and go to war- it's inevitable in the world they live in, and even when the teachers try to protect them, they look for conflict themselves, or it finds them, which is something that happened to every teenage team of the X-men. Cyclops approach is much more realistic.

Not to mention whether the kids are going to be fighters or not should, ultimately, be their choice, not some hypocritical old man running a death squad.

And finally, like I said, i strongly dislike this "the school is the whole world" approach- part of what made Morrison's run so fascinating is he expanded the mutant world so much.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Jun 2019, 21:25

It really boils down to taste as far as tone but there are some mischaracterizations of this book (and really the Gillen UXM book that I see it is being compared to).

First their was choice for the kids...it just was choice they’d get to make upon graduation from the academy. Instead of being indoctrinated from a young age like Cyclops was to be fighters in a paramilitary unit (that’s why I never faulted Cyclops for his moves, he became the man a bastard like Xavier made him and actually proved to be better than him imo). This was of course born from Logan’s actions when dealing with the Red Right Hand (great arc). And no different than saying a 15 yr old can’t serve in the military but they can when they graduate from high school.

Second, to say they “have to fight the war” flies in the face of Xavier’s ideals (at least at their best) and what Cyclops himself was fighting for. Xavier’s idea was that the X-Men would fight for a better world so that others wouldn’t have to suffer or endure the racism like them. And Cyclops just took that a step further and was fighting like he did so that a school or oasis from the fighting could exist (the either/or scenario that fans postualte always kinda rubs me the wrong way, it’s why I loved the issue where Logan and Scott reconcile because it showed that they both needed each other and Bendis squandered that completely by making Logan belligerent and Scott incompetent).

Finally, of course this book focused on the school, it was the school book. Like New X-Men was the student book. That’s like getting mad at Excalibur for focusing on the UK. That’s the purview of this particular book. You can’t fully compare it to Morrison’s book because that wasn’t the sole purview of that book (even if it did spend alot more time than like the last decade did on the school).

I can see how the tone, cast, and art of this book wouldn’t be someone’s taste. As I thought Gillen’s book was the better main book (don’t know where the idea that this book was a flagship came from but okay) but I think you can level critics at this book without characterizing it as something it wasn’t. The book was a lighter version of what the New Mutants book was originally but with more adults.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Blackcyclops » 09 Jun 2019, 21:27

And I still never saw how Logan being on kill sqaud (a pretty effective one at that) made him a hypocrite? He didn’t have any kids on the UXF team and he had all adults who chose to do that. No different than any other X-Men team lol
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by P-90 » 09 Jun 2019, 22:16

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 20:20
Well, maybe it's just me, but I don't like to see my favorite characters become hypocrites.

Also, the problem is that, sooner or later, the X-men kids have to fight and go to war- it's inevitable in the world they live in, and even when the teachers try to protect them, they look for conflict themselves, or it finds them, which is something that happened to every teenage team of the X-men. Cyclops approach is much more realistic.

Not to mention whether the kids are going to be fighters or not should, ultimately, be their choice, not some hypocritical old man running a death squad.

And finally, like I said, i strongly dislike this "the school is the whole world" approach- part of what made Morrison's run so fascinating is he expanded the mutant world so much.
Training the kids to defend themselves and/or eventually be part of an active hero team (if they choose to be) is very different to training them to be a kill squad, yes they should have a choice as to whether they want to be a soldier and that was part of Logan's argument, that they have the opportunity to make that choice.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 10 Jun 2019, 02:36

P-90 wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 22:16
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 20:20
Well, maybe it's just me, but I don't like to see my favorite characters become hypocrites.

Also, the problem is that, sooner or later, the X-men kids have to fight and go to war- it's inevitable in the world they live in, and even when the teachers try to protect them, they look for conflict themselves, or it finds them, which is something that happened to every teenage team of the X-men. Cyclops approach is much more realistic.

Not to mention whether the kids are going to be fighters or not should, ultimately, be their choice, not some hypocritical old man running a death squad.

And finally, like I said, i strongly dislike this "the school is the whole world" approach- part of what made Morrison's run so fascinating is he expanded the mutant world so much.
Training the kids to defend themselves and/or eventually be part of an active hero team (if they choose to be) is very different to training them to be a kill squad, yes they should have a choice as to whether they want to be a soldier and that was part of Logan's argument, that they have the opportunity to make that choice.
Cyclops wasn't training them to be in X-force, and they did have the choice whether to fight or not, or to kill or not. Logan's point was to take it away from them entirely because HE knew better.

Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Jun 2019, 21:25
It really boils down to taste as far as tone but there are some mischaracterizations of this book (and really the Gillen UXM book that I see it is being compared to).

First their was choice for the kids...it just was choice they’d get to make upon graduation from the academy. Instead of being indoctrinated from a young age like Cyclops was to be fighters in a paramilitary unit (that’s why I never faulted Cyclops for his moves, he became the man a bastard like Xavier made him and actually proved to be better than him imo). This was of course born from Logan’s actions when dealing with the Red Right Hand (great arc). And no different than saying a 15 yr old can’t serve in the military but they can when they graduate from high school.

Second, to say they “have to fight the war” flies in the face of Xavier’s ideals (at least at their best) and what Cyclops himself was fighting for. Xavier’s idea was that the X-Men would fight for a better world so that others wouldn’t have to suffer or endure the racism like them. And Cyclops just took that a step further and was fighting like he did so that a school or oasis from the fighting could exist (the either/or scenario that fans postualte always kinda rubs me the wrong way, it’s why I loved the issue where Logan and Scott reconcile because it showed that they both needed each other and Bendis squandered that completely by making Logan belligerent and Scott incompetent).

Finally, of course this book focused on the school, it was the school book. Like New X-Men was the student book. That’s like getting mad at Excalibur for focusing on the UK. That’s the purview of this particular book. You can’t fully compare it to Morrison’s book because that wasn’t the sole purview of that book (even if it did spend alot more time than like the last decade did on the school).

I can see how the tone, cast, and art of this book wouldn’t be someone’s taste. As I thought Gillen’s book was the better main book (don’t know where the idea that this book was a flagship came from but okay) but I think you can level critics at this book without characterizing it as something it wasn’t. The book was a lighter version of what the New Mutants book was originally but with more adults.
First, this book wasn't New Mutants, which was about the kids. This was about the adults primarily, and the idea of making them ignore the whole world to focus only on what happened inside the mansion gates was not a disaster creatively wise. Cyclops' team was accused of isolationism, but despite living in an artificial island in the Pacific, they cared more about thev rest of world than WatXm crew did. Hard to take seriously all the whining when Cyclops was rescuing mutants from danger, fighting Dormammu and Sentinels and Logan's side was risking the time-stream for petty reasons and fighting a circus or whatnot.

And yes, this was heavily sold as the new flagship at the time. If you liked, good for you, but for me it had few redeeming qualities. Although the really sad part is both this and Bendis' extremely flawed run were preferable to what came in the main books afterwards...

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Nu-D » 10 Jun 2019, 10:24

9E3670B9-FFDF-444E-B9E6-C089A9238755.jpeg
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by das_boot » 10 Jun 2019, 12:58

Okay so... I didn’t hate it. In fact, I kind of enjoyed the lighter tone compared to all of the other DARKDARKDSRK X-titles at the time. New Mutants post-schism attempted a little levity but it just fell really flat for me, whereas Aaron’s run was silly, it didn’t take itself too seriously at all, and, actually? It still had a lot of heart. Even during tie ins like AvX, it still managed to give us more of an insight into where the characters were at in terms of their headspace than many of the other titles at the time.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 10 Jun 2019, 17:58

Nu-D wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 10:24
9E3670B9-FFDF-444E-B9E6-C089A9238755.jpeg
THIS is how you write Wolverine, ladies and gents.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by EphemeristX » 10 Jun 2019, 19:41

I think Wolverine's change of heart regarding children in combat was an earned one. The X-Force thing could be seen as a little hypocritical, but I don't think Logan, even at his most kid-friendly, was above permanently dealing with problems. Having Laura and Rahne on the team bothered him.
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Nu-D » 10 Jun 2019, 23:05

In my view, Logan’s character does not operate from general to specific. Instead, he operates on a much more case-by-case basis. What I mean, is Logan isn’t the kind of guy who says, “kids shouldn’t fight,” and applies that rule to Kitty. Instead, he considers, “who is this kid and what is she capable of,” and makes judgments based on the individual case, not some abstract rule. That’s evident by the last bit of dialogue on that page.

I didn’t read WatX, because goofy comics are not my thing. But if Logan’s taking some principled stand that kids should never be soldiers, should never make hard choices, should be protected from life and death, I don’t think that’s consistent with his character as it was developed by Chris Claremont.

If, on the other hand, he was taking the position that these kids, under these circumstances, need an alternative to being conscripted into Cyclops’ army, then I would find that a development consistent with the roots of the character.

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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jun 2019, 02:03

EphemeristX wrote:
10 Jun 2019, 19:41
I think Wolverine's change of heart regarding children in combat was an earned one. The X-Force thing could be seen as a little hypocritical, but I don't think Logan, even at his most kid-friendly, was above permanently dealing with problems. Having Laura and Rahne on the team bothered him.
Exactly...

The page cited above doesn’t fully speak to this book because it’s from A different time and place. Not to sound snarky because that wasn’t my intention NuD.

Logan’s change of heart about those kids in those circumstances (and you could only really get Logan to do what he did in the circumstances of decimation) being made to essentially serve in Cyclops’ army was because of the above mentioned X-Force stories and everything Logan went through in his solo book.

Now being able to see and understand his stance doesn’t equate to thinking he’s more right (I think over time because of how bad Bendis’s story was and Cyclops’ final fate, Cyke’s side is now glorified without the critical eye people had on it at the time lol), just that it’s a fair alternative to Cyclops’s more militant stance.

For me, I could see issues with both side. You look back at some of those threads and you can see how much people found wrong with it. But I think he did the best with what he was working with based on his personality.
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Am I alone in disliking Jason Aaron's Wolverine & the X-Men?

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Jun 2019, 05:30

Also think EphemeristX is spot on.

Much of Logan's entire development is about trying to be a better man. He won't always succeed and in many cases his animalistic and savage side will still get the better of him, but the point is he doesn't want to be that animal.

Will he still kill or take a proactive step? Absolutely and he still knows he can deal with things in that way better than others can, but I think if you look at it as hypocritical rather than a character development then the richness of his individual arc is lost. I think it was telling that Rahne, Laura and Jimmy were swapped out for Fantomex and Deadpool.

I would also say Wolverine's time with the Avengers also had an impact on him... he wasn't the outsider that was on the edge of insanity but a trusted ally working with the flagship heroes of the Avengers. These are all smaller elements that I think "softened" Logan over an extended period. Would CC's Wolverine have given over a class of mutants to Spider-Man? Of course not, but that's why comics are a long-form story telling so we can see how their trials and tribulations change them.

Much like how Cyke wasn't the same Scott Summers of Claremont's run post Decimation. I've been very clear that I didn't like that personality development - I understood it, as I get that sometimes the things we go through can make us act like complete dicks, but didn't like it, as I preferred the stoic, boy scout type Scott.

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