Reconciling Moira

[das_boot]

So this is more of a shower thought, and absolutely not about examining Moira’s various lives, but like… how are you guys reconciling Moira going full villain with your own feelings of the character previously?

For me, I kind of love how full evil Moira is now. Like, she’s full chaotic evil right now and while I do love it, I think there’s been a few missed opportunities along the way.

-Wolfsbane and Proteus haven’t really been shown reacting to this. This bothers me more for Rahne who was arguably more cared for by Moira than Kevin was. While I get this was probably something that was going to be picked up in the abandoned Moira centric title, it’s just a bit sad this wasn’t touched on.

-there are certain points that I enjoy from the “good Moira” throwbacks (“Hullo Jean” is just dark when you compare those panels side to side). At the same time, I really kind of struggle to see how Moira who was stern but kind has reached the point that she’s at now where she just HATES all mutants. Charles, Magneto and Apocalypse I could understand, but I really struggle to see how she could end up hating people like Jean, Scott, Sean etc to the extent that she does now. I certainly feel like there’s an element of “having effectively thousands of years of memories” could drive someone a bit mad; especially when all you’re seeing is a losing fight each and every time… but still.

Ultimately I’m torn. I almost feel like Orchis Moira can be seen as a different character from pre-Legacy Virus-death Moira.

So how do y’all feel about this?

[Blackcyclops]

I mean even if you don’t count “evil” Moira, it would be hard to reconcile Moira X in general with traditional Moira right?

I mean Moira X had done terrible things even before she became a machine. So yeah I just see it all as an act, which makes her seem even more twisted if we’re being honest.

[tokenBG1009]

The writers aren't interested in reconciling it. Why should I? She's a terrible retcon that I think Hickman may have had a good idea for, but has abandoned for other writers to just do... whatever with. She went from being a good non-mutant ally of the X-Men to just another Cassandra Nova. She was there all along! She's ruining Xavier's life!

Meh.

[Spectral Knight]

The problem I still have is the 'why' she went full villain.

Did she do horrendous things during her prior lives? Yes, I've critiqued this loads in the past. But I wasn't convinced pre-Inferno that she was necessarily antagonistic. Even with the hopes of depowering mutants, it was an (admittedly twisted) view of preservation. I think post-Inferno the depth of Moira was lessened, she seems less someone bitter and broken by her experiences (and I still felt the actions during her Tenth life could be reconciled with this, even if some of it is a charade) but the full villain mode she's in now? It's difficult to reconcile it all. For me, the 'turning point' was the slaughter of Banshee.

I think Hickman's 'long-game' for Moira was massively curtailed with him leaving the X-books, and those who've picked up the baton seem to see more value in her being a lunatic villain obsessed with killing mutants outright, and that to me is weaker than someone who's seen numerous attempts of preserving mutant life fail and is broken by the experience to the point where she wants to 'cure' them. She has become less interesting for me post-Inferno, for sure.

[Monolith]

Well, part of the problem is that Moira "died" back when people still thought of Charles Xavier as an inherently decent person. He was a dreamer, an idealist, a martyr, the "Good Shepherd", who just cares too darn much. Only in the decades since her death have the fandom and the X-Men really accepted that Xavier was a manipulative bastard willing to compromise himself over and over again "for the greater good" (Vulcan, Danger, etc.).

So, even if Moira X wasn't a thing, Classic Moira needs to be reconciled with Modern Xavier. Seeing Xavier as we do today, does that mean Classic Moira was "the good one", his conscience (as she sort of seemed to be in Deadly Genesis), or does she also need reexamining? Because, as charmingly Scottish as Moira could be, she was also an obsessive and myopic mad scientist even before the retcon. She saw her own son as a lab experiment and test subject. Yes, there were reasons for the "distance" between them, but look at her other relationships. Given an infant Magneto, she took it upon herself to "correct" his future behavior. She adopted Rahne Sinclair and loved showing love to her, occasionally, but also was very clear on her priorities. In X-Factor #90, Wolfsbane broke down in front of Moira, desperately seeking attention for her very real problems, and Moira's response was a cold and clinical "Excuse me, my test tubes are behind you."

Classic Moira had a good bedside manner (...sometimes), and really felt bad about doing horrible things later, but she still did them and justified them. She had a "cause" that was more important to her than individual lives. Change what that cause is, and you get something like Moira X.

There was an interview, I believe, which clarified that Robo-Moira after X Death of Wolverine was supposedly trapped in the state of mind she was in when her brain patterns were copied, frozen in a mindset of peak betrayal and personal loss. Which would certainly be helpful to see referenced in the comics...

[Blackcyclops]

Its funny how justifications can be used for some but not others.

Even before turning full on villain or Moira X, Monolith points out how Moira wasn’t as perfect as some people might consider her. Part of it might be, because most fans have more emboldened in their mind the idea or Moira and her last few years being written (and even the retcon of DG where she was shown as the sensible one) more than the person we originally met. So people’s priors on her are set firmly in “good guy”.

Then we get Moira X and I think, even aside from the how she’s changed since being put in robot body (I remember the exact same interview Monolith), we have to consider how much lying she did all through Life 10. Lying that for any other person, I could imagine being seen as bordering on the sociopathic. Then there’s the things she did in her previous lives. SK brings up skinning Banshee but we have ZERO idea what she did in some of her less savory lives but it’s hinted at. I think though because people have those priors about her, they don’t even consider it.

[das_boot]

I mean in her previous lives she

-sided with Magneto who isn’t above killing when he deems necessary
-sided with Apocalypse who isn’t above killing when he deems necessary which is more often than Magneto
-went lone wolf to execute the Trask line
-was given thousands of years of history as a download ON TOP of eight previous lives’ worth of memories.

And then even “classic Moira” in addition to the stuff Mono listed, kept Legion’s existence a secret from Xavier until she had no other choice.

Moira’s always been a bit morally grey if you pay close attention, she’s just been a slightly lighter shade of grey than Xavier.

I do kind of feel as though there’s still an element where you can see her as a monster of the X-Men’s own making. Certainly knowing that she was on her last life has made her make significantly harder choices and been a lot more clinical since her “death” from what we’ve seen… but then if you’d had nine prior chances to course correct and thought you were on your last try to stop absolute destruction of your entire Galaxy… are her actions not understandable, if not forgiveable?

[norwichchris]

In my view Moira turned against them when both Xavier/Magneto planted a tracer on her, plotted behind her back to bring Sinister onto Krakoa and finally when she was depowered and given cancer also failing to stop the resurrection of Destiny was also one of the last straws for her. This is what finally did it for her given all she had done for them and did always think she was not to be trusted.

It still DOES NOT make any sense though are we led to believe the entire time that Xavier never actually for one minute believed his dream would succeed or that Magneto would not take advantage of the knowledge gained from Moira to go a different route to world domination. I feel that Moira was always going to turn on them as she wants to ascend into a dominion to finally be free of her resurrections.

However know she has been depowered and become a cyborg so yes would say she is a villain know but when would be during the Krakoan era not really before as I do feel she was hopeful that they could actually make it work.

In her previous lives hardened her to try and ensure Mutant survival but she always failed for one reason or another. Do they really count though? as she knew once she was resurrected it would all be put back again.

[Cable]

or that Magneto would not take advantage of the knowledge gained from Moira to go a different route to world domination.

World domination has never been Magneto's real goal.

[norwichchris]

or that Magneto would not take advantage of the knowledge gained from Moira to go a different route to world domination.

World domination has never been Magneto's real goal.

Nobody knows what magneto's goals actually where he probably doesn't either. I think he found out after he tried to kill Kitty and during the trial of Mangeto storyline, the 1st one not the latest crap one.

[andywolfman]

or that Magneto would not take advantage of the knowledge gained from Moira to go a different route to world domination.

World domination has never been Magneto's real goal.

He on several occasions stated that that was his explicit goal for like the first 15 years of his publishing history

[Cable]

or that Magneto would not take advantage of the knowledge gained from Moira to go a different route to world domination.

World domination has never been Magneto's real goal.

He on several occasions stated that that was his explicit goal for like the first 15 years of his publishing history

The most recent Magneto series suggests that he had ulterior motives in doing so.