A Beast of a problem

[Gremlin]

As many of you know, Beast's trajectory over the past few decades has had him become more obsessed with protecting the mutant race and his moral compass has been drifting south. Things have ramped up in recent years during Percy's X-Force and the Wolverine runs, with Beast doing some truly despicable things.

The question is should be be redeemed? He has many fans who remember him as the fun and lovable Beast from the Avengers and X-Factor eras, and from the X-Men cartoon. The writers could continue the path of him essentially becoming the 616 Dark Beast, but would Marvel let it stick?

With Krakoa, there is a great get-out-of-jail-free card that can be played, and that would be to resurrect him with a psyche from a time long ago when he was "old" Beast. Essentially wiping 10, 20 or 30 years of history from his memories. The trouble is he isn't truly punished for his crimes this way as the "villainous" Beast would essentially be dead and gone and the newly resurrected one would most likely be absolved of all crimes.

Should Beast be "fixed" so he's good again? What would be the best way to do it? Or should we keep evil Beast?

[Spectral Knight]

I honestly can't fathom the changes that Beast has gone through, particularly in the Krakoa Age.

Can he get fixated to the point of obsession - yes, we saw that with his efforts to solve the Legacy Virus.

But... this doesn't feel like the same Hank that gave Scott short-shift for forming X-Force post Messiah Complex, his condemnation of Scott in allowing Kurt to sacrifice his life in Second Coming, and then bringing the O5 into the present to counter Scott's behaviour post AvsX.

Hank's been one in the past to turn 'rebel' against X-leaders in the past when he's felt they'd gone too far, so his descent into 'evil genius' mode, seems way-off. I know people will reference the Beast of HCT in terms of how far he can fall, but this was a Sublime influenced Beast who gave in to Kick after desperately trying to fight for the Dream, so I don't see the motivations or trajectory as the same at all. I don't quite get how it's the same character who had objected to such extreme acts when mutants were in much, much smaller numbers and facing greater risks, is willing to go to such lengths now that there are not those risks.

Can he be redeemed? I dunno - it'd depend on the creative. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I can't see how his progression can be justified. The only thing I can think that might explain it if he himself had been corrupted at some point prior to a resurrection. It's the kind of thing Sinister might do, as well as others, but is that also a get-out-of-free card? It's probably 'lazier' than a mind-wipe that undoes his past acts, but with such a mind-wipe, it reveals how dark he can go, and also, can he ever be trusted again? If he's unknowingly a victim of manipulation it might allow a pass.

[Jindianajonz]

Percy has moved him towards the dark side a bit too quickly (though admittedly, i skipped everything between AvX and HoX/PoX), but honestly, I like where he ended up.

I was talking to my partner about the post-Claremont era under Lobdell, and one of my criticisms of it was that every X-man had too strong of a moral compass. There wasn't a lot of debate within the team, everybody just fell in line behind god-saint Xaviers dream. Fraternal conflict stemmed from misunderstandings or outside influences, not because of philosophical differences. It gave us a run that, while known for its downtime issues, really didn't have a lot of drama, just feel-good moments and reconciliation.

Having Beast where he is now pushes back against that paradigm. It opens up the door to different stories, and I wouldn't want to shut that out to "preserve" the idea of a character. When this franchise tries to preserve, it stagnates- see the aforementioned Lobdell and the even worse late 90's period that was afraid to stray too far from where Claremont left things, or the misguided Decimation which abruptly ended the most fertile narrative landscape between Claremont and HoX/PoX. Beast may not be who I picked for the role, but now that he's Krakoa's resident Fascist, I don't see a reason to replace him with somebody else. I do like that we watched a hero go down that path instead of using an established villain though.

[Blackcyclops]

I don’t like where Beast ended up but I’m also not shocked he went there.

In fact, I’ve already argued elsewhere that this Beast fits more in line with who Beast was really up till he joined the Avengers and actually fully became this carefree guy. Otherwise, Beast was an insecure obsessive with a bit of a god complex. Over time aspects of that personality would wax and wane but I think it’s always been there.

I think back to him trying to cure Legacy and trying to cure Decimation (disagreeing in that era being misguided…the post-Morrison to AvX was easily the most experimental and bold direction for the books since Claremont and until HoX/PoX) and I see the place he is now not as another example of but just further down that path.

I look at his reprimanding of Cyclops the same way. He’s a person who feels he knows better but really isn’t the best with handling power. And now at this point, he’s given power and having experienced how sometimes dirty work has to be done (not to mention his time on the Illuminati…where he was prepared to kill a world to save the Earth), he’s worked out that he has to take some steps to actually preserve something good. Which is a different motivation in my mind than Cyclops scraping for survival. In one you’re just trying to get by, in another you’re fighting not to lose something.

My big criticism just has been how fast he’s gone “dark” and how extreme. I could have imagined a more nuanced take that really only went so far but still far enough.

[WorldWideWade]

As one of the biggest Beast fans on the site I feel like I should respond to this question.

Beast should not have his personality reset. Even though this Beast is not the one I fell in love with and partially inspired me to pursue science/genetics in my career, I believe this trajectory mostly makes sense given his history. My hope for when the Krakoa era inevitably ends is that the various mutants split into factions based on morality/interests. Beast could join up with Sabretooth or whoever ends up representing the more morally gray faction of mutants. Not fully evil but certainly not aligned with the X-men faction.

On a side note, I cannot believe that Gillen brought back Dark Beast. I figured they killed him off in the Rosenberg run because they planned on essentially making Beast become Dark Beast therefore making the AoA version redundant.

[Cable]

Is Beast now worse than Bishop was during the Messiah Complex era? That was shrugged off by fans over time.

[Spectral Knight]

Hmmm...

I consider Bishop post Messiah Complex as a bit of a zealot. His obsession with nullifying the threat of Hope, and having LIVED through the circumstances where she caused the death of millions. It's a bit like...if you had the chance to go back and kill Hitler, would you? And if so, what lengths would you go to do so?

I thought that was a sudden heel turn as the idea of a mutant messiah hadn't been mentioned before but conceptually, it made more sense than Beast's trajectory, not least as Bishop always had more of a militant twist to him compared to other X-Characters. I personally can't see how someone like Hank who called out others repeatedly for 'crossing the line' has gone so past it and it feels for me, one of the least likely to turn fasc, compared to say, Scott, Magneto or even Xavier himself.

[Blackcyclops]

I don’t think Beast is a fascists here. I think he’s just honestly being a zealot himself. He believes in the idea of Krakoa so much that he’s willing to go to places that cross a moral line that before he never crossed.

[das_boot]

Is Beast now worse than Bishop was during the Messiah Complex era? That was shrugged off by fans over time.

I mean…

We also saw a future that Bishop lived through, that was caused by Hope, where mutants as children were subjected to physical and mental torture, kept in a concentration camp, and she was responsible for the death of a HUGE number of people. While I don’t agree with killing children, Bishop genuinely thought he was being the sin-eater of the X-Men in attempting to kill Hope to prevent his future from happening and the murders of his found family in the present day.

Also he wanted to kill Hope which, relatable.

Beast isn’t just driven by his own pride here, he honestly seems to think that due to his intelligence he’s several steps above the rest of Krakoa. He’s beyond arrogance or hubris or whatever you want to call it, and he’s actually hit the point of self-delusion and self-aggrandising to a level that makes Apocalypse, Sinister and Doctor Nemesis seem humble. He’s pulled rank on The Five, he’s committed war crimes, he’s played loose and fast with issues of consent, and I think he’s broken at least two of the laws of Krakoa. He’s alienated pretty much all of his friends and loved ones, and he’s treating his role as the director of X-Force as though it’s somehow on par with the Council (which, sidebar, as a concept makes zero sense to me— we have war captains, and we have one (1) court of the council with an explicit purpose— that being the financial aspects of Krakoa and their produce, and none of the other courts have a specific remit that couldn’t include the oversight of X-Force and to rein Beast in? Krakoan politics EXPLAIN YOURSELF).

Honestly there’s an element here of laying some of the blame at the feet of Xavier. He gave Hank this role and then just waltzed off in to the sunset with his fancy psychic hat to continue to be a terrible father and ex boyfriend. Even when he’s been challenged by Jean who Hank typically listens to, he’s ignored her advice. He’s intentionally allowed his team to have their own internal issues to distract them from the mission. I know that out of universe we can attribute inconsistencies to writers telling stories they want to tell, but look me in the eye and tell me that the treatment of Toad et al in Sabretooth, Malice, hell even the X-Terminators being hauled in front of the council for damaging Krakoa’s standing with FREAKING VAMPIRES, is proportional and a deserved and measured response when compared to the lack of any action or response to anything Beast has done.

Yeah, Beast is being a douche canoe of the highest magnitude and the character is just… JUST a mess right now… but is this NOT because he’s been ALLOWED to become this due to the council wanting to absolve themselves of involvement in a black ops team? What’s happening with Beast is a direct consequence of their lack of action taken to bring him to heel.

[Cable]

Is Beast now worse than Bishop was during the Messiah Complex era? That was shrugged off by fans over time.

I mean…

We also saw a future that Bishop lived through, that was caused by Hope, where mutants as children were subjected to physical and mental torture, kept in a concentration camp, and she was responsible for the death of a HUGE number of people. While I don’t agree with killing children, Bishop genuinely thought he was being the sin-eater of the X-Men in attempting to kill Hope to prevent his future from happening and the murders of his found family in the present day.

Also he wanted to kill Hope which, relatable.

To be clear, Bishop didn't just try to kill Hope, he killed millions. From Cable #9

Now, Bishop needs to fess up and reveal how he destroyed the world. He tells Cyclops he stole six deadly weapons. Australia, he nuked. He decimated most of Europe with a secret weapon designed by the U.S. government that poisons entire water supplies. In South America, he unleashed an advanced version of napalm so powerful not even water can quench it; the oceans barely contained it. He used a combination of bioweapons and toxic chemicals to destroy Asia and Africa.

Beast seems rather tame by comparison...

I think it is easier to shrug off by fans because it was an alternate reality, but Bishop himself is from an alternate reality! Is he not a real person?
If Bishop can come back from that then I don't see why Beast can't come back. And I'm not saying that is how it should go, but that I think it is viable that he could be put into character limbo for a period and then brought back out with some regret and everyone would move on.

[das_boot]

Is Beast now worse than Bishop was during the Messiah Complex era? That was shrugged off by fans over time.

I mean…

We also saw a future that Bishop lived through, that was caused by Hope, where mutants as children were subjected to physical and mental torture, kept in a concentration camp, and she was responsible for the death of a HUGE number of people. While I don’t agree with killing children, Bishop genuinely thought he was being the sin-eater of the X-Men in attempting to kill Hope to prevent his future from happening and the murders of his found family in the present day.

Also he wanted to kill Hope which, relatable.

To be clear, Bishop didn't just try to kill Hope, he killed millions. From Cable #9

I give him a pass for that because he was trying to kill Hope, which is objectively correct.

(I joke. Mostly)

[WorldWideWade]

I see Bishop's destroying of an alt world minus America and I raise Beast's complicit destruction of an alt planet Earth as part of the Illuminati.

Bishop's deeds probably shouldn't have been redeemed but they pulled out a Demon Bear excuse (I think, I don't quite remember Uncanny Xforce vol 2). I suppose they could do something like Onslaught survived and festered in Hank but I hope they actually commit to a full face-heel turn of an original X-man.

[Magnus]

Bishop's deeds probably shouldn't have been redeemed but they pulled out a Demon Bear excuse (I think, I don't quite remember Uncanny Xforce vol 2).

FWIW, I went back to check UXF, and Demon Bear wasn't a retcon explanation for him being evil. Bishop gets trapped in the far future by Cable, survives on his own for about a year, then dies. He gets resurrected by a group of monster hunters, trains as one of them and joins them. He says he realized on his own that what he did re: Hope was wrong and he has a lot of sins to pay back. He gets possessed by Ghost Owl, returned to the past, then possessed by Demon Bear.

I think the comparison between Beast and Bishop is pretty apt. I think with Bishop, the original concept (of him just wanting to kill Hope, one person) was workable, but the writers let the plot get away from them and went overboard, such as having him kill millions of people, even if they are faceless nameless alternate reality statistics. And I think that's why it was easier to sweep under the rug, because if you (like the 616 characters themselves seem to) just remember it as "tried to kill Hope, my bad" it's easier to allow redemption, but "hey remember when Bishop killed billions of people" is a bit harder to swallow.

Beast also seems to have some good idea, bad execution to it as well IMO. The idea of a morally grey spymaster doing "what needs to be done" is a solid one. But I think he's done too many things that are indefensible even inside that framework, not to mention just being generally incompetent. OTOH, it also seems like Percy has been purposefully driving Beast into being full-on villain, without even trying to cast him as a shades of grey type. (I also agree with SK that the role doesn't quite seem to fit with Hank himself - just compare to IvX, where Hank wants to be the dove, and all the other X-Men are the "gotta do what needs to be done, at any cost" types.) Like, if there's a Magneto scale, we're on the Morrison end. But it looks very likely that resurrection of Beast to his Avengers-era backup is going to be the solution. Which seems somewhere in-between Bishop's "I realized I was wrong, I'll redeem myself through heroics" and Magneto's "that was actually an imposter!" solutions.

If that does happen, I wonder if any writer will have the guts to follow that up with the begged question - doesn't this essentially just make Beast a ticking time bomb, living on borrowed time until he breaks bad again? Or will they hope that given a new lease on life, he won't go down the same path?

In the end though I won't be surprised if the general memory, of both in-universe characters and general readership, just remembers Beast in this era as "yeah he did some questionable Hooverish stuff" and forgets the worst excesses, as they did with Bishop. I think this sort of issue (how long-standing comic characters vary from writer to writer but usually settle back to their 'best' or 'classic' selves) could make for some fascinating scholarship.

[Blackcyclops]

I guess I don't feel the Bishop and Beast thing really clicks for me. Bishop's actions were done in opposition to the X-Men, thus making him a "villain". Bishop's went full-on maniacal and thus his return to the side of the angels, so to speak (Bishop wasn't really expunged of his sins until the Astonishing X-Men arc, where he got his "start over" card if I'm not mistaken) comes across as a bad guy going good.

Beast, meanwhile, has done all his things in service of the X-Men and directly to a lot of characters in the present. So it's not him being a "villain" in so far as he isn't framed as the big bad guy against the good guys. Like Bishop took on the X-Men writ large, Beast is still working for the X-Men, sorta, so he's not yet become THE bad guy. This makes his descent feel much more real and weighty. And if he is saved through a cloning reboot, it's a much cleaner resolution.

[BardicOne]

I think the best way to redeem Beast at this point is have him full on jailed/quarintined/stopped from doing anything/whatever you want to call it. Then give it a year or two of comics, no Beast anywhere. Then he comes out calm and shamed at this actions, give it another year or so of "rebuilding trust" in smaller areas. Don't roll back his persona but don't ignore the Sins. Find that happy medium because I think Beast is trying that Cyke/Jean route of "I'm an original X-Man, I have skills outside of my mutant powers, I should be a foundation of Krakoa." but he is also falling into that "amoral scientist" trope because his skill is logical problem-solving. Add in a bit more empathy Hank, is all I'm saying.

[Spectral Knight]

I guess I don't feel the Bishop and Beast thing really clicks for me. Bishop's actions were done in opposition to the X-Men, thus making him a "villain". Bishop's went full-on maniacal and thus his return to the side of the angels, so to speak (Bishop wasn't really expunged of his sins until the Astonishing X-Men arc, where he got his "start over" card if I'm not mistaken) comes across as a bad guy going good.

Beast, meanwhile, has done all his things in service of the X-Men and directly to a lot of characters in the present. So it's not him being a "villain" in so far as he isn't framed as the big bad guy against the good guys. Like Bishop took on the X-Men writ large, Beast is still working for the X-Men, sorta, so he's not yet become THE bad guy. This makes his descent feel much more real and weighty. And if he is saved through a cloning reboot, it's a much cleaner resolution.

Doesn't this assume that the X-Men are always the good guys?

I've flagged this in prior threads but I'm not entirely sure they are the "good guys" anymore. I think they as a collective are much, much greyer than that. Or maybe, not the X-Men, but Krakoa. And Beast's actions haven't been in service to the X-Men but to the Krakoan state. As you (quite rightly) pointed out to me a year or so ago, they're related but are not the same.

[Blackcyclops]

The X-Men are definitely the good guys.

Beast has yet to become the bad guy for the X-Men to fight (although I guess he’s fighting Wolverine and Wolverine is categorically a “good guy”). The moment that happens, he crosses much more toward the Bishop side.

[Magnus]

I see the distinction you're making BC, but I think that moment has passed as of the last couple issues of Wolverine. Beast is definitely the villain-antagonist of the story, with Wolverine (and Sage) as the hero-protagonists.

[Blackcyclops]

I see the distinction you're making BC, but I think that moment has passed as of the last couple issues of Wolverine. Beast is definitely the villain-antagonist of the story, with Wolverine (and Sage) as the hero-protagonists.

And that’s my fault…I haven’t read that book in so long that I’m only going off the few spoilers I see.

[das_boot]

I see the distinction you're making BC, but I think that moment has passed as of the last couple issues of Wolverine. Beast is definitely the villain-antagonist of the story, with Wolverine (and Sage) as the hero-protagonists.

And that’s my fault…I haven’t read that book in so long that I’m only going off the few spoilers I see.

It’s not just your fault— in the hands of a more nuanced and capable writer I feel like you’d be absolutely spot on. The problem is that I feel like Beast’s descent in to darkness hasn’t ever really been a steady decline but more a sharp drop, a plateau for a bit, then another sharp drop. I also feel like his starting point for the current X-Force run was a sharp drop we didn’t see happen really, whereas a more compelling story would be an almost arc by arc decline.

Going back to the comparison with Bishop, I think because Bishop’s steep drop in to villain territory was so jarring compared to his previous morality, I think that’s why his redemption worked. While we only saw it in flashbacks to his time spent in the far future, we know he really worked for his spiritual/mental growth and from what I remember, his redemption wasn’t performative— he had no way of knowing that the X-Men would ever become aware of his actions

[tokenBG1009]

I think a sharp change in character makes sense for Beast considering what he was given.

Before Krakoa he was just kind of a dick who thought he knew better than everyone else. He's very "Why are you yelling at me? I'm right!" kind of guy. Then he was given complete autonomy and told to do what he felt he needed to do. He was given absolute power with no consequences. He already was an "ends justify the means" type of character. And he's also someone who always believes he's right with absolutely no ability to self-reflect. Even Scott, at his worst, knew he was in the wrong for the right reasons. Hank doesn't think he's doing wrong. He believes he's doing what's necessary.

It was going to go badly.

[norwichchris]

I think a sharp change in character makes sense for Beast considering what he was given.

Before Krakoa he was just kind of a dick who thought he knew better than everyone else. He's very "Why are you yelling at me? I'm right!" kind of guy. Then he was given complete autonomy and told to do what he felt he needed to do. He was given absolute power with no consequences. He already was an "ends justify the means" type of character. And he's also someone who always believes he's right with absolutely no ability to self-reflect. Even Scott, at his worst, knew he was in the wrong for the right reasons. Hank doesn't think he's doing wrong. He believes he's doing what's necessary.

It was going to go badly.

Well I'm only going from memory I do recall during the secret Invasion Cyclops asked Beast to create a bio-weapon to eradicate the Skrull's then did so but wanted to make an antidote first but Cyclops used it anyway. The only bad thing he has done pre-Krakoa I recall was bringing the O5 X-Men back in time and everyone was against it and it did cause a lot of problems.

He does what he sees as necessary for the greater good as mentioned but pre-Krakoa he never tried to kill/harm anyone that I know off. Whether that makes him a villain depends on the point of view.

He is Krakoa's security services and suppose the attitude at the time was "his task was to fix it before they heard about it or it threatened them" much like the CIA or KGB does he is the equivalent of J Edgar Hoover but was far less competent and reckless. He considered the consequences of his actions or which mutants would get hurt along the way.

[tokenBG1009]

The best example of Beast being a terrible person Pre-Krakoa is letting known eugenist and evil person Mr Sinister take Threnody knowing Sinister was going to do some terrible shit to her.

[norwichchris]

You have a valid point but at the time wasn't he trying desperately to find a cure for the Legacy Virus and he figured that Sinister would be the best option? not that I agree with him but it did kind of work out think for Threnody I can't remember.

I can't see any justification for what he has done to Logan or with X-Force other than short-sightedness and arrogance beyond belief.