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Achieving the Dream

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Spectral Knight
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Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 10 Oct 2021, 10:10

Stemming out of the road to Krakoa and the divergences of that conversation, imagine for a moment you are a young, gifted and bald student at Oxford who you believe yourself to be a mutant, due to the telepathic powers that emerged during puberty. You also have a dream where those who are mutants will live in peaceful coexistence with those that are not mutants

You have recently met a young woman named Moira Kinross who has opened her mind to you, showing seemingly a number of past lives where mutants become oppressed, often with you yourself being murdered (either by Sentinels or by other mutants).

Imagine that following that conversation you are resolute, peaceful existence is still your ambition. The question I pose is how will you achieve your Dream?

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norwichchris
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 10 Oct 2021, 12:15

I would firstly:

Open a school to train protect Mutants from a hostile world

Promote peaceful coexistence with by engaging with Governments round the world/Force anti mutant politicians to step down by politically destroying them.

Create Mutant hero teams to deal with evil Mutants/engage in disaster relief

Ensure that evil organization/religious zealots that harm and promote hatred of Mutants are shutdown and destroyed e.g. (infiltrate and destroy from within with pro-mutant human agents)

Show how Mutant powers/abilities can be used to help others (Healers, Telepathic powers)

Get other human superhero teams to support and encourage Mutants to join them (UA, Avengers)

Create eventually a Mutant homeland for Mutants to be themselves and keep it secure with the latest in defence technology

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Oct 2021, 06:07

I'm going to try to do this using the contextual history of the MU...

1. Identify and publicly publish the existence in of the X-Gene ASAP. According to what we know mutants were not publicly known about for at least 10 years after the Oxford bench scene - this is needed for subsequent points.

2. Do NOT under any circumstances label mutants as "homo superior" or "the next step in humanity's evolution", or anything that suggests supremacy of mutants over humans in any scientific or public debate or literature. This reinforces the idea of those who are not X-Gene positive as being at risk or "less than" mutants, and stokes fears. The X-Gene is a quirk of genetics but mutants ARE humans, essentially.

3. In time publicly reveal yourself and willing (mature) adult mutants. The conversation has to change from mutants should be in hiding to mutants exist and are part of society. I'd suggest the willing adult humans should be those who've already had a role in public society. Time wise, Erik, Banshee, Forge, Logan, even Thunderbird I all served in the military or law enforcement before becoming X-Men so are likely to be older than their cohorts so might be early suggestions.

4. Investigate, identify and publicise human rights abuses taking place against mutants in the shadows. Expose the torture and oppression that the public are not aware of yet.

5. Rather than create a private school and recruit specific teen mutants, lobby for state education of mutants, either within traditional education streams or as a separate but publicly funded and accessible schools specific for mutants. As an anti-segregationist I'd prefer the former but recognise this may be a hurdle at least initially. State education should be both traditional education and in learning to control powers (where applicable) - it is NOT about combat training.

6. Start the public discourse of the role of mutants for the global economy. It's a valid question and needs to be addressed - is it a case where in some industries there are power dampening fields used against some powers (mind control for negotiations, or in the court room...?) but the role of mutants jn the workplace can be incentivised by tax breaks for private companies employing mutants. This is very, very complex so start the conversation early - it has to be normalised but there's all sorts of ethical questions regarding the increased productivity / economical advantages that some powers can offer.

7. Lobby for anti-discrimination rules to be adapted to protect against mutants - anyone's child could be a mutant and no-one should be discriminated against because of a quirk in their genes. Reinforce mutants are born of humans, they are our (society's) sons and daughters. This is complex in light of the two prior points but there has to be prevention of rights abuses.

There has to be some sort of differentiation in law in allowing mutants to benefit from state funded education in controlling their abilities but does there need to be legislation on private enterprises to ensure they don't withhold employment rights from mutants, conversely also not withhold employment rights from those who do not have productivity influencing powers (I.e a corporation consisting solely of mutants may have significant productivity advantages)? All sorts to think about here.

8. Develop the role of mutants in the armed forces. Sounds controversial? I know... but I have a reason. This HAS to be voluntary rather than conscription based but it's obvious that some mutants offer a distinctive advantage on the battlefield. Mutants showing they are willing to risk their lives in support of their country creates an affiliation to wider society rather a mutant identity, reducing the fear of the unknown (and that "red threat" style panic of the enemy within from circa Fall of the Mutants).

9. Create outreach centres for mutants in difficulty. Ideally publicly funded but if not charitable foundations would suffice. Main thing is to have somewhere publicly promoted as being a contact point for mutants who need help. This might be kids with bigoted parents or it might be an employee who is suffering discrimination in the workplace. The outreach centre should form links with relevant arms of the state (social security, law enforcement, departments for industry etc.) to act as a liason on mutant specific issues.

10. Definitely do not create outlaw paramilitaries. Even more, definitely DO NOT create outlaw paramilitaries consisting of minors in my care.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by comicsfan666 » 11 Oct 2021, 08:12

Are you trying to put an end to all X-comics? ;)

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Oct 2021, 08:31

:lol:

Outlaw paramilitaries are GREAT fodder for superhero comics.

But I do suspect, it's probably not the best way for Xavier to achieve his dream...!

"I'm going to recruit vulnerable teenagers to come and live with me, some of whom have unlimited potential, dress them up in uniforms and when I'm not getting them to fight robots and automated defences in my basement, I'll send them into conflict situations, whilst I stay at my mansion. I'll also document a myriad of ways in which my students can be killed, just in case...".

Christ, Charles, no wonder it went to shit on repeated occasions. And that's without mentioning his slightly noncey crushing on one of his first students!

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 11 Oct 2021, 08:56

Mutant paramilitaries are needed to fight against evil mutants, and to show Mutants protecting humans from danger. When the X-Men started out they were mobbed by fans many times then it slowly got worse over the years for a whole host of reasons.
Spectral Knight wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 08:31
"I'm going to recruit vulnerable teenagers to come and live with me, some of whom have unlimited potential, dress them up in uniforms and when I'm not getting them to fight robots and automated defences in my basement, I'll send them into conflict situations, whilst I stay at my mansion. I'll also document a myriad of ways in which my students can be killed, just in case...".
You have a valid point I guess but its comics or he could

"Found a mutant nation with a living Island which feeds of mutant energies, create Pharmaceutical company to sell Drugs to Humans both legally and illegally, have a Mutant cult that kills depowered Mutants so they can be resurrected as mutants, start resurrecting long dead mutants and lastly read everyone's mind once a week to make backups clones in case they die whilst I run the nation with a creepy helmet and still send my students out to be killed constantly but not also learning from previous mistakes"
Spectral Knight wrote:
11 Oct 2021, 08:31
Christ, Charles, no wonder it went to shit on repeated occasions. And that's without mentioning his slightly noncey crushing on one of his first students!
Yes its not really very surprising if he always followed the same pattern no wonder Moira lost it with him.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by das_boot » 11 Oct 2021, 19:07

SK. I think ours would be WEIRDLY similar. I need to actually take your list and explain where I would differ and why, and this may take some time
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by das_boot » 11 Oct 2021, 21:14

1. I agree, but I’m taking it further. Moira must surely know that the Vietnam (or whatever the MU has used instead due to timeline issues) war is coming. Basically; Charles needs to convince her to bury the hatchet with Destiny and bring her and pregnant Mystique onboard. While she starts publishing work on the X-gene and using the benign power of Destiny (downplay the hell out of it, basically, that she can only predict a couple of hours in advance at most) as a show-mutant. This is also where they need to recruit Sinister. Xavier goes to Vietnam/whatever the war Marvel uses now is, stops Cain becoming Juggernaut but also puts him in a position where he’s likely to be a military hero and ascend the ranks, while also being bastard Xavier and manipulating Cain’s mind towards a feeling of respect for Xavier as a person. Tough, I know. We also need the gal pals to rescue Erik, Magda, and Anya. Magda absolutely cannot run off and Anya absolutely cannot die. Erik needs to be softened to the whole “all humans are awful” rhetoric.
2. Agree. It’s a marketing thing.
3. Agree— but let’s get rid of Logan because I’ll explain why later. He’s off the table. We also need to change things up a bit and Xavier needs to actually be vicious and deal with Shadow King permanently, adopt a young Ororo, and he needs to get Gabby Haller on board and pregnant, and he needs to recruit Comcast. He and Forge are kind of clutch here. I’d also have him rescue Scott and Alex before they go into foster care.
4. So here we go. We differ here. We need Weapon X active. We need them to be doing awful things to mutants and we need Xavier et al to wilfully let this happen. Ditto Black Womb and anyone who is doing something awful to mutants. Then they expose it as they tear it down. Comcast and Forge do some kind of witchery that makes this footage be shown all over the world. Fingers are pointed at global governments. And… and this is where I might lose you here… Xavier needs to subtly influence the general public to be more sympathetic to this. Nothing like a “force” but a nudge to make anyone with any kind of moral compass see this for how awful it is and to demand their governments take action. This is Stonewall/Civil Rights movement. They also need to get Fury/SHIELD onboard here, and Shaw and the mutant factions of the Hellfire Club and the Morlocks.
5. Yes. 100% agree. However, again, we need there to be some kind of balance— we can’t deny that there are some mutants whose abilities are too dangerous for them to be in mainstream schools and that makes it PERFECT for Moira to be the lead on this and NOT Xavier.
6. Agree again— but but but but but… you mention the court room. Something I’ve always thought would be a ridiculously useful opportunity would be having a telepath present in high profile murder cases or similar— not to force a confession, but to be able to say “they’re lying”. Why wouldn’t this be something that would be as admissible in law as DNA evidence? Intelligence agencies would absolutely love an agent who could astrally project themselves around somewhere and gather information that way. Also, this would be the point where you would deploy Storm to places suffering famine to basically transform eco-systems— show that she isn’t doing this for profit, she’s doing it because it’s the RIGHT THING ™️ to do. This is where Xavier would announce the Xavier university— this is a school where humans and mutants could attend, with the point being that the best and brightest of both species are finding new ways to use mutant powers for the benefit of the whole world.
7. Absolutely agree
8. Absolutely agree, but this also needs to be stretched into federal agencies, law enforcement, medicine, science and technology. This kind of meshes with point 6 for me, I won’t lie.
9. Agree but also think that this needs to be human ally led— hence why Gabby is needed— and why Legion would actually be the ideal poster boy for why outreach is needed
10. Shhhhhhhh we have them as sympathetic antagonists who basically become more popular than the Avengers
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 12 Oct 2021, 05:02

:lol: I find it very amusing how much we agree considering our usual political disagreements...!

1. Is it still possible for them to save Magda and Anya? I kind of assumed they'd have been dead before the Oxford scene. This is where the sliding timescame proves tricky as we know both Magneto and Anya were Auschwitz survivors, and Erik is a bit immune to the sliding timescales thanks to him being de-aged but I'm not sure exactly how much time is supposed to have passed between WWII and the Oxford scene (which is ~35 years ago in Marvel time).

3. Does Ororo even need to become orphaned? How much "expected" death should Charles try to prevent?

4. This is a bit dark. I can kind of understand the need to make this even more of a public scandal but equally that means allowing people to be tortured. I'm a bit icky at this- and also if it gets out that Charles KNEW about it and didn't try to stop it it could lose massive amounts of public support undoing the other good work.

6. I guess that my fear that whilst there would be incredible benefits to having telepaths as part of the justice system, how are we sure they are 100% free of corruption. That someone like Frost can "make" people feel they are guilty even when they are not raises suspicions about how fair the process can be. My feels are that the court room in particular has to be free from powers but that TPs may be used to access memories as part of an investigation to retrieve memories and identify physical evidence. I don't know exactly how that can be controlled though. It's hard even thinking about it. :|

9. I think Legion wasn't known about until Life X so I'm not sure that David as a person was really considered. David and Proteus were both products of the icky genetic matches Moira proposed for the mutants working in tandem I assumed.

10. But definitely don't let Xavier recruit teen red heads that catch his dirty, perverted mind right?

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by das_boot » 12 Oct 2021, 07:03

1. 🤷‍♂️. I would still have Magda die in childbirth (because Polaris still needs to happen and at this point I believe that the only known healing mutant would be Healer, whose powers don’t work on humans… either way, Magneto’s narrative needs to become one of a stupidly powerful mutant who could cause massive destruction— but “chooses” not to.
3. Actually, good point. Her parents may have produced other siblings that would also be pretty powerful. David and N’Dare just got saved.
4. Yeah. It’s icky. But logically… without showing the worst of how mutants are used and abused by governments, where does the public sympathy come from? Further to that, Wolverine can then become the “poster child” for poorly treated mutants becoming protectors of the human race as a whole. I’m OBVIOUSLY anti-torture etc in reality but for the purposes of Xavier’s dream, not only do the worst of these programmes need to be exposed… they need to happen for them to be exposed to maximise public sympathy.
6. The more I thought about this the more I thought that telepaths could be used pretty much only to verify the veracity of witnesses in a legal setting, however, there’s also a game changer in terms of mutants like Wicked or Dead Girl who could be used within a legal setting to draw testimony from murder victims. I appreciate what you’re saying— we’re relying on any given telepath to not have an agenda in a legal case… perhaps, with telepathy being quite a common power, it just becomes a thing where telepathic mutants are almost cycled through like jury service or like circuit judges, where they’re just randomly assigned to a case, but their remit is solely on witness credibility and NOT innocence or guilt.
9. Fair point, well made.
10. Absolutely not— although with Jean being as powerful as she is, she’s also kind of necessary for the X-Men, I would argue. However, rather than making them paramilitary, make them disaster relief, or a highly trained team that works alongside SHIELD and armies etc. As long as they maintain the presence and function of “we’re using the abilities we have to protect humanity and mutantkind alike”, there’s no reason they shouldn’t end up as publicly adored as the Avengers and FF.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 12 Oct 2021, 09:30

No matter what live Moira lives, it would be impossible for her to save Magda and Anya as they died a long before she was ever born she is not as old as Eric who is at least 10 years older than Xavier minus the de-aging from Mutant Alpha. He was in the Nazi Concentration camps I'm afraid his hostility to humanity is mostly permanent but could be softened maybe. Although I do agree on the narrative and its surprising how much he has held back over the years and I also wonder if he will unleash his full power.

I 100% agree on exposing the Weapon X program to the entire world this would create a great deal of sympathy towards Mutantkind as well as suppose allowing the program to run its course. I question if Moira can do much to stop the program as she may not necessary know much about it, its not like Wolverine ever told her everything as he had his mind wiped. Xavier could have known but would maybe want to investigate it in order to further his cause. Think you are all underestimating how much knowledge Moira would have amassed and whether she could use it as you describe when you consider the butterfly effect.

I agree destroy the Shadowking at all costs which think he seems to have done so.

Xavier's biggest mistake was he never showed how mutant powers could be used for good and benefit human society. However this would also in way increase the fear people have of Mutants as it could also backfire.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by das_boot » 12 Oct 2021, 09:51

I don’t think that’s quite right NC— if Moira wasn’t alive when Anya was killed, SW and QS would also be significantly older than Moira, whereas they were similar in age to the O5 X-Men. It could have happened pre-Oxford which means they were too late, but to say that Magda died during childbirth before Moira was born would make SW and QS around the same age, if not older than her.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 12 Oct 2021, 10:34

Rephrase to not alive but was not necessarily old enough to stop the events taking place or could she have done as Anya was killed by an angry mob.

SW & QS where born a few days afterwards but were taken into care by HE and Bova.

Moira is definitely older than SW & QS but not technically older than Magneto. You need to take into account the fact that Magneto had never met Charles until they met in Israel years later so it would have been very difficult for her to have stopped there deaths nor would she have wanted to perhaps?

As this would have made Magneto more hostile towards humans and more pliable for her plans.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 12 Oct 2021, 12:50

das_boot wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 09:51
I don’t think that’s quite right NC— if Moira wasn’t alive when Anya was killed, SW and QS would also be significantly older than Moira, whereas they were similar in age to the O5 X-Men. It could have happened pre-Oxford which means they were too late, but to say that Magda died during childbirth before Moira was born would make SW and QS around the same age, if not older than her.
I vaguely recall because of the High Evolutionary's role in the twins' birth / early upbringing, there was some suggestions they may have been held in suspended animation (a la Jessica Drew) to account for the age differences of them as (supposedly at the time) children of Holocaust survivors. The character age thread from years ago raised this as a get out, I believe.

SW + QS's origin has got so muddled in repeated retcons though so it's a bit of a mess.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by das_boot » 12 Oct 2021, 13:01

That’s why this would be an easy retcon— they were always with Xavier and Moira, no HE/Ch’Thon nonsense and they’re just mutants
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 13 Oct 2021, 15:26

das_boot wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 13:01
That’s why this would be an easy retcon— they were always with Xavier and Moira, no HE/Ch’Thon nonsense and they’re just mutants
Please if there is anyone with any brains in Marvel Comics restore QQ,SW as full fledged Mutants. Fox no longer owns them anymore so no need to ruin the X-Men series anymore.

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by norwichchris » 13 Oct 2021, 22:20

I do wonder and to go of topic why did Xavier's dream die or is it still continuing but in a different form?

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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by BardicOne » 14 Oct 2021, 04:40

I think Xavier has reinterpreted "peaceful coexsistence" from everyone in the same suburb and happily grilling together into sharing the same planet and saving the lasers for the aliens. Or Namor who is King Jerk to everyone. Just wait a month and Namor will give you a reason to want to shoot him.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Nu-D » 14 Oct 2021, 13:48

Get a law degree and litigate and lobby for civil rights.

Under no circumstances would I found a paramilitary organization. Instead, I would promote integration of mutants into established public service and safety institutions.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Oct 2021, 13:52

There’s a difference between promoting the dream in the real world and promoting it in a world where supervillains exist, I think.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Cable » 14 Oct 2021, 14:11

Yeah some of these ideas are good but how are they going to stop the coming of Arakko lol
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Oct 2021, 14:35

Cable wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 14:11
Yeah some of these ideas are good but how are they going to stop the coming of Arakko lol
Or like Kang the Conqueror or idk Fin Fang Foom lol
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Nu-D » 14 Oct 2021, 14:41

Blackcyclops wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 13:52
There’s a difference between promoting the dream in the real world and promoting it in a world where supervillains exist, I think.
Yeah, so join the Avengers. Don’t form your own exclusive club.
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Oct 2021, 15:19

Nu-D wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 14:41
Blackcyclops wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 13:52
There’s a difference between promoting the dream in the real world and promoting it in a world where supervillains exist, I think.
Yeah, so join the Avengers. Don’t form your own exclusive club.
It doesn’t have to be exclusive though…more superheroes the better I say. It’s not conscription…
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Re: Achieving the Dream

Post by Spectral Knight » 14 Oct 2021, 16:02

Again, historical context. There's no 'real' Avengers at the point of the Oxford scene.

(I'm not sure if the 50s Avengers or the Atlas characters are floating around at this point though, given the weird floaty timeline).

Also, again to BC's point, I'm not really sure how many supervillains were around and active either (at that point).

As for Arakko - no 'Poccy being on Krakoa to open the gate, no problems ;)

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