Welcome to unstablemolecules.com, the discussion home for mightyavengers.net, uncanon.com and uncannyxmen.net!

HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Level 10: In this section, people will argue about all x-related topics, such as certain character ages, continuity or the nature of the Phoenix. Newbies beware!
User avatar
das_boot
Posts: 4237
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 15:24

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by das_boot » 05 Apr 2021, 18:03

Also for life 3, it’s entirely likely that without Moira’s Deadly Genesis team, the X-Men died on Krakoa with just Xavier and Cyclops to tell the tale, and potentially not even Cyclops surviving.
X-Centric podcast: coming soon!

User avatar
tokenBG1009
Posts: 6398
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 20:34

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by tokenBG1009 » 05 Apr 2021, 18:37

Off topic

I've played too much Final Fantasy and I got real confused talking about Life 3 as a spell. I should get coffee.
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

User avatar
das_boot
Posts: 4237
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 15:24

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by das_boot » 05 Apr 2021, 18:50

tokenBG1009 wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 18:37
Off topic

I've played too much Final Fantasy and I got real confused talking about Life 3 as a spell. I should get coffee.

100% could see you as a Red Mage
X-Centric podcast: coming soon!

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 21783
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 05 Apr 2021, 19:02

das_boot wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 18:03
Also for life 3, it’s entirely likely that without Moira’s Deadly Genesis team, the X-Men died on Krakoa with just Xavier and Cyclops to tell the tale, and potentially not even Cyclops surviving.

I mean you really dig into it Moira’s presence, pre-retcon is lretty significant...

Like there is no Proteus without her, which makes you wonder about Colossus’s trajectory...

She doesn’t cure the Legacy Virus...

She never dates Banshee, so his trajectory is changed.

Matter of fact, Muir Island as a X-location doesn’t happen so the Phoenix Saga goes differently...

What else is impacted by Moira’s presence pre-HoX?
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
WorldWideWade
Posts: 1521
Joined: 04 Mar 2013, 18:49
Location: Texas

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by WorldWideWade » 05 Apr 2021, 19:05

She had a pretty big hand in starting the New Mutants right? Wolfsbane for sure.

Did she actually convince Xavier to start the young team when he thought all the X-men were dead in space or something?

Also it seems that Legion was someone genetically selected for by Moira. So no Age of Apocalypse.
Current Pull List
Hickman's X-men, Runaways, Champions, Immortal Hulk, X-Factor, New Mutants, Hellions, Marauders

User avatar
das_boot
Posts: 4237
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 15:24

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by das_boot » 05 Apr 2021, 19:13

WorldWideWade wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 19:05
She had a pretty big hand in starting the New Mutants right? Wolfsbane for sure.

Did she actually convince Xavier to start the young team when he thought all the X-men were dead in space or something?
I’m pretty sure he didn’t want to form another team because he thought the X-Men were dead. Moria convinced him after they saved Dani, Sam and Berto, as I remember.
X-Centric podcast: coming soon!

User avatar
Usernamenotimportant
Posts: 352
Joined: 30 May 2019, 10:46

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 05 Apr 2021, 21:29

Blackcyclops wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 16:34
You sure? We see that in Life 1 she lives a very uneventful life, so much so that she doesn’t even meet Xavier.

This means that every action Moira took as we had seen pre-HoX didn’t happen. That’s a HUGE difference from the normal 616...like I don’t even know how else to explain that. Think of all the storylines she directly impacted...think about all the ones she indirectly impacted...it’s alot of stuff there that just couldn’t happen or happened differently due to her absence. So no Life 1 is very different than 616.

Now what’s important here is that Moira didn’t know she was a mutant after Life 1. So I think we can reasonably say that the X-Men probably didn’t exist as we had grown to know them because Moira had a perfect memory of her first life yet in her second, it took her time to realize she was a mutant too...

Life 2 is when she dies flying to Xavier. Again she’s not in his life and thus any impact she had is gone, so that timeline is again going to be very different from the usual 616.

Life 3 she meets Destiny and Mystique. Now I don’t agree that just because there’s a Brotherhood means there is an X-Men, we’ve seen hundreds of What Ifs where teams form without other teams and there’s not inherent in Mystique forming a “terrorist” group that necessitates a mutant superhero strikeforce. That said, I do believe the X-Men exist though just because I think Xavier is there catalyst and not Moira...but again, a very different timeline that 616.

Life 4 is the closest thing we get to what looks like the 616 we know. Now, given that the 616 we know is Life 10 and Life 10 has a retconned past, I think we can safely say that Life 4 still has some differences from the 616 (one that jumps to mind is the “death” of Moira storyline...that didn’t happen since Moira was killed by Sentinels in some undisclosed time in the future here not by the Legacy Virus).

So there is a butterfly effect caused by Moira being in Xavier’s life and not being in it...

Everything else is stuff you have already said before (or others have)... but we all want a Moira X series...
Regarding Moira's 1st life- it's entirely possible that there was a X-men team, just Moira didn't think about her being a mutant because they weren't a factor in her life and the possibility of her being a mutant didn't cross her mind. She also doesn't seem to make any acknowledgement of Avengers, F4, Spider-Man, etc. Frankly, that might be most interesting world to see what's like.

The main differences between 4th and 10th are probably everything that was influenced by Legion and Proteus- not just AoA, but also the Mutant Massacre (which only happened because of Dark Beast) and who knows what else.
das_boot wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 18:03
Also for life 3, it’s entirely likely that without Moira’s Deadly Genesis team, the X-Men died on Krakoa with just Xavier and Cyclops to tell the tale, and potentially not even Cyclops surviving.
On the other hand, is quite possible, if not likely, that they don't go to Krakoa at all.

Alternatively, not knowing it's importance to mutantkind (or the importance the new arrivals would have), Xavier simply calls the Avengers or the F4 for help in getting the X-men out of there, particularly since at that point he was already in the Illuminati, at least during Moira's 10th life (and likely some of the others).

User avatar
Lavettye
Posts: 1418
Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 18:33
Location: Germany

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 05 Apr 2021, 21:54

It's equally possible that in life 3 and 4, the second generation team was simply staying at Xavier's school, and not on Muir... two mutant teams under the same roof, just like the X-Men and the New Mutants or later the Gold and Blue squads. And then they were sent to Krakoa to assist the first group just the same... But its all speculation, and we won't know for sure until its being revealed in a book.

As for Moira's presence/absence having an impact - other than what was mentioned above, it was revealed (UXM #300, I think) that Xavier did discuss with Moira whom he would recruit for his first generation of X-Men, so that could have been different. Also, due to the Xavier/Moira connection, Syrin and Multiple Man stayed extensive terms on Muir Island, affecting both of their lifes.
[PL_2.0]

User avatar
Spectral Knight
Posts: 2304
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:00

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 06 Apr 2021, 01:30

Its interesting the DG team has been raised in respect of Moira's prior lives, but even more interesting is Moira's (and Charles') behaviour during Life 10 in respect of everything we now know about how long Charles and Moira were working together.

Deadly Genesis showed Xavier mind wiping Moira - is she even currently aware Xavier wiped her memory of him sending this team to their death / apparent death?
This seems like a mighty big betrayal that also happened before the collaboration with Magneto.
Does she know they're all back on Krakoa?

User avatar
Blackcyclops
Posts: 21783
Joined: 12 Apr 2007, 21:03

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 06 Apr 2021, 01:55

Lavettye wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 21:54
It's equally possible that in life 3 and 4, the second generation team was simply staying at Xavier's school, and not on Muir... two mutant teams under the same roof, just like the X-Men and the New Mutants or later the Gold and Blue squads. And then they were sent to Krakoa to assist the first group just the same... But its all speculation, and we won't know for sure until its being revealed in a book.

As for Moira's presence/absence having an impact - other than what was mentioned above, it was revealed (UXM #300, I think) that Xavier did discuss with Moira whom he would recruit for his first generation of X-Men, so that could have been different. Also, due to the Xavier/Moira connection, Syrin and Multiple Man stayed extensive terms on Muir Island, affecting both of their lifes.

Good calls...

Yeah there’s a lot that happens very differently without Moira around and we’re naming stuff she directly impacted. To just say Legion and Proteus really limits her impact and misses a lot, even with Legion particularly influencing ALOT of things just by himself.
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

User avatar
norwichchris
Posts: 676
Joined: 22 Dec 2019, 18:40

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 06 Apr 2021, 08:42

As I recall from the comic the original X-Men go to Krakoa as they discover a massive Mutant signature which captures them - the Island is the Mutant. Then Cyclops is released to get more mutants for the Island to feed on and his mind is wiped think as well?. Xavier then has to travell around the world looking for his All new All different X-Men team to rescue them which Moira had no say in as she appeared much later on, he was already aware of Banshee/Sunfire as well Wolverine I think who was actually sent to assassinate him but was Mind-wiped by Xavier.

I would imagine the DG Team became a part of this lineup?
Regarding the Legacy Virus it's entirely plausible Beast or other mutant scientists found a cure.
Spectral Knight wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 01:30
Its interesting the DG team has been raised in respect of Moira's prior lives, but even more interesting is Moira's (and Charles') behaviour during Life 10 in respect of everything we now know about how long Charles and Moira were working together.

Deadly Genesis showed Xavier mind wiping Moira - is she even currently aware Xavier wiped her memory of him sending this team to their death / apparent death?
This seems like a mighty big betrayal that also happened before the collaboration with Magneto.
Does she know they're all back on Krakoa?
OMG completely forgotten all about this but are you sure he wiped her mind? Don't get me wrong 100% certain he would mindwipe her as he did to Cyclops erasing his younger brother from him which is a despicable thing to do.

Having said that Moira also betrayed both Banshee & Rahne by faking her own death also strongly suspect she killed Destiny which is why she is reluctant to resurrect her.

If we think about how much of an influence both positive and negative did Moira have on both Magneto and Xavier all this time?

User avatar
Spectral Knight
Posts: 2304
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:00

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 06 Apr 2021, 09:15

According to Xavier's spotlight on UXN, yeah, he did wipe her mind following the death of the DG team. I don't have the TPB to hand to double-check mind.

User avatar
XtremeOne1
Posts: 4045
Joined: 07 Apr 2007, 16:03

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by XtremeOne1 » 06 Apr 2021, 21:26

Hmm yeah I forgot about that. Wonder if that will be covered..

User avatar
Lavettye
Posts: 1418
Joined: 22 Feb 2016, 18:33
Location: Germany

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 06 Apr 2021, 21:35

Lavettye wrote:
05 Apr 2021, 21:54
It's equally possible that in life 3 and 4, the second generation team was simply staying at Xavier's school, and not on Muir... two mutant teams under the same roof, just like the X-Men and the New Mutants or later the Gold and Blue squads. And then they were sent to Krakoa to assist the first group just the same... But its all speculation, and we won't know for sure until its being revealed in a book.

As for Moira's presence/absence having an impact - other than what was mentioned above, it was revealed (UXM #300, I think) that Xavier did discuss with Moira whom he would recruit for his first generation of X-Men, so that could have been different. Also, due to the Xavier/Moira connection, Syrin and Multiple Man stayed extensive terms on Muir Island, affecting both of their lifes.
norwichchris wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 08:42
As I recall from the comic the original X-Men go to Krakoa as they discover a massive Mutant signature which captures them - the Island is the Mutant. Then Cyclops is released to get more mutants for the Island to feed on and his mind is wiped think as well?. Xavier then has to travell around the world looking for his All new All different X-Men team to rescue them which Moira had no say in as she appeared much later on, he was already aware of Banshee/Sunfire as well Wolverine I think who was actually sent to assassinate him but was Mind-wiped by Xavier.
NC, you absolutely missed the point of what I said. I was refering to the original five X-Men line-up. That's what Xavier discussed with Moira in the UXM #300 flashback, and she also was at Xavier's mansion behind the scenes in those early days when Cerebro and the Danger Room were being built, as was seen in flashbacks of X-Men Legacy #208 and Uncanny X-Men #273.

All of those were Xavier's ideas and choices, it seems, but still he used Moira as a sounding board, someone to discuss his ideas with and her not being around for any of that, might alter the pace of development, if not also the direction.
[PL_2.0]

User avatar
Spectral Knight
Posts: 2304
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:00

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 06 Apr 2021, 21:48

XtremeOne1 wrote:
06 Apr 2021, 21:26
Hmm yeah I forgot about that. Wonder if that will be covered..
I should hope so, it was a fairly big story of note with lasting repercussions in terms of character introductions.

It'd be proper LOL if once Moira goes public on Krakoa, we get a scene like this..

Vulcan: "Teach, we're back, and can't believe you're here and alive with us after all this time"
Moira: "Erm...who are you?'
Darwin: "Don't you remember us. We're your students... you sent us to...well here, and two of us died, but they're better now"
Moira: "Sorry, no idea what you're talking about"
Cyclops: "Oh, don't worry the Professor mind wiped me too. I was pissed off for a long time, but I've got over it..."
Moira: "Charles...?!"

User avatar
norwichchris
Posts: 676
Joined: 22 Dec 2019, 18:40

Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 08 Apr 2021, 16:18

Thats a difficult one Lavettye as you said he was discussing his plans and choices with Moira in the beginning however she also had to spend a great deal of time breaking down Xavier's core beliefs in his dream and the bad idea of appealing to the goodness in humanity. The real question is how did she succeed in breaking down Xavier because he spent a great deal of time convinced his dream would succeed even with showing him all her lives.

Doubt she did much to alter his trajectory at the start e.g. founding the School, training an X-Men team and working how to get his dream started. See her pointing out who best to train as X-Men. It would be interesting too actually if there were some Mutants Moira opposed brining into the X-Men from her previous lives.

Post Reply