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HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

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Spectral Knight
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 11 Oct 2020, 07:13

Blackcyclops wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 15:20
Spectral Knight wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:45
Blackcyclops wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:12
The way you describe Krakoa again demonstrates how our social location strongly impacts how we view the DoX philosophical framework...
I'm not sure I understand...?
Well using the word “segregation” when talking about Krakoa. Segregation is on the surface an agnostic word and has a dictionary definition that is unbiased...but it has a heavy connotation in the real world. Segregation in the real world is almost always created by those in power (either explicitly or implicitly) as a means of control and power exertion.

Krakoa isn’t that. Setting aside the weird scifi stuff, at the heart of Krakoa is the assertion of a peoplehood (a humanity) for a minority group. It’s about giving people an opportunity to live without the fear of hatred and discrimination. Now obviously it isn’t perfect and there as flaws in that approach. But there are equally flaws in the old approach of respectability politics and worrying about what the humans think and being good so as not to upset the humans.

Now, my point was that, to put it bluntly, for me being a Black man (or EphX for being someone who doesn’t sit firmly on the heterosexual quadrant) I can empathize and even see the utility in this framework for the mutants to be taking. In the real world there are way more reasons, in my mind, to not use that approach BUT in the MU and the futures Moira saw, it’s alot harder ignore that this option (while not perfect) seems alot more sensible than it seems. And that going the other way really never accomplished much...

But that’s basically what me and a few others have been arguing about this direction since DoX started...
I was using segregation by its dictionary term, which as you rightly say is unbiased.

There is no way that you can really look at Krakoa as a country and its societal frameworks and it not be considered segregation. It is a separation of humanity based on the presence of the X-Gene. The ressurection protocols are reserved for mutants. It is segregation. There is the argument that the exertion of power by Krakoa (the leverage of the flower drugs, Emma ever-rising the free will of someone to get what they wanted) also turns the power imbalance on its head.

We could argue the toss over whether it is the right approach for the safety of mutantkind but whether it is the right approach or not doesn't change what it fundamentally is, especially when combined with the proclamations on panel.

I have no idea if my "social location" (a term I had never really heard before but which I guess refers to a multi-dimensional set of co-ordinates based on an array of characteristics) geared the labelling of segregation as "segregation". Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but given that *I* don't know if it did, to assume it did because of my social location seems a little presumptuous as there could be someone in pretty much the same social location as myself who would use a different similar word/sequence of words.

And to be clear, my point wasn't about the appropriateness of the new way, which we've discussed in the past, but that the discourse shown on panel from HoX/PoX onwards was, for Jean, a 180° pivot from the message she was trying to communicate to the world in Taylor's run.

I hope, for the logic of storytelling in continuous fiction the reason for this pivot is revealed o give it context. Charles's pivot / change of approach was given context by the revelations in that series, but he hasn't shared those with the rest of the QC, other than Mags as far as I understand, even keeping Moira's past and continued life a secret, and so for Jean specifically I don't get it. Is she simply resorting back to following Xavier without independent consideration...or is there something screwier going which is limiting resistance to the Krakoan herd (my belief at the moment).

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 11 Oct 2020, 13:01

The rise of artificial intelligence is not necessary a threat to mutantkind, for example Danger was an AI who helped the X-men and the cerebro helmet must have some form of AI for it to function. Forge used Shi'ar technology to create the backup process and all there tech is sentient.

Humankind makes it a threat by creating machines to wipeout mutantkind hence the concept of a human mutant war leading to Nimrod and eventually post-humans.

You could consider hickmans interpretation of the rise of the artificial Vs organic compared to the digital age we live in know and the impact this will have on jobs/society in general.

SK honestly think you and BC are missing the point they are a race of people fleeing persecution which means avoiding contact with humanity and building there own society. They are even offering peace deals to avoid conflict but will occur anyway.

However do feel that the X-Men have shifted to being more hostile towards humans and viewing them as lesser beings.

I mostly agree with SK views that something drastic must have happened for such a change especially with Jean. No one knows about Moira's past lives or future events so yes something is clearly wrong with them and it's likely to do with the resurrection process?

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 11 Oct 2020, 13:37

norwichchris wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 13:01
The rise of artificial intelligence is not necessary a threat to mutantkind, for example Danger was an AI who helped the X-men and the cerebro helmet must have some form of AI for it to function. Forge used Shi'ar technology to create the backup process and all there tech is sentient.

Humankind makes it a threat by creating machines to wipeout mutantkind hence the concept of a human mutant war leading to Nimrod and eventually post-humans.
No matter what it was designed for, A.I. becomes a threat as soon as it no longer requires humans to build and program them. As soon as sentient, self-aware machines are able to create other sentinet self-aware machines, it becomes a species of its own,... one that soon doesn't want to be treated as tools or hired help, but has a life and mind of its own. It's the same as with any other species. Some members might see the benefit of peaceful coexistence and other members do not. For every artifcial life that is willing to accept organics, there's another who concludes that organic life is a threat to its continued existence and thus needs to be either contained (=prison camps) or exterminated.

And - once again - it's not strictly about mutants. Look at Ultron. Hank Pym created this A.I. robot to help him and he gave it the capacity for learning and adapting. See how that turned out. Ultron has managed to procreate by making the Vision, Jocasta and Alkhema. Ultron was never designed to hunt down mutants, but still it attacked superhumans and tried numerous times to either kill all of humanity or transform them into techno-organics. Additionally it's not just limited to Earth. Even if modern technology was never created here, then you'd still have the Phalanx and the Technarch, for example, who'd eventually come to Earth and begin assimilating.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Oct 2020, 13:51

Lavettye wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 13:37
norwichchris wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 13:01
The rise of artificial intelligence is not necessary a threat to mutantkind, for example Danger was an AI who helped the X-men and the cerebro helmet must have some form of AI for it to function. Forge used Shi'ar technology to create the backup process and all there tech is sentient.

Humankind makes it a threat by creating machines to wipeout mutantkind hence the concept of a human mutant war leading to Nimrod and eventually post-humans.
No matter what it was designed for, A.I. becomes a threat as soon as it no longer requires humans to build and program them. As soon as sentient, self-aware machines are able to create other sentinet self-aware machines, it becomes a species of its own,... one that soon doesn't want to be treated as tools or hired help, but has a life and mind of its own. It's the same as with any other species. Some members might see the benefit of peaceful coexistence and other members do not. For every artifcial life that is willing to accept organics, there's another who concludes that organic life is a threat to its continued existence and thus needs to be either contained (=prison camps) or exterminated.

And - once again - it's not strictly about mutants. Look at Ultron. Hank Pym created this A.I. robot to help him and he gave it the capacity for learning and adapting. See how that turned out. Ultron has managed to procreate by making the Vision, Jocasta and Alkhema. Ultron was never designed to hunt down mutants, but still it attacked superhumans and tried numerous times to either kill all of humanity or transform them into techno-organics. Additionally it's not just limited to Earth. Even if modern technology was never created here, then you'd still have the Phalanx and the Technarch, for example, who'd eventually come to Earth and begin assimilating.
Exactly...that’s what I said.

Iron Man literally just dealt with a very similar existential battle in his book. And there are a ton of real world futurist, technology experts and the like, who view a very similar potential future for us.

Pointing out 1 example, Danger, doesn’t negate what the broader trend is.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Cable » 11 Oct 2020, 14:11

But Iron Man's conclusion was to give AI more autonomy. Is he helping usher in the end of humanity?!
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 11 Oct 2020, 15:18

Though not willingly, quite possibly yes. And he wouldn't be the first inventor to build something just because he can, without looking at the long-term repercussions. (Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Forge, etc.)

However, in the case of AI it's a moot point. It's not an invention (=new creation) but a discovery (something that's already in existence). It makes no real diffrence who introduces it into Earth's system, but once the contact has been made it can't be undone. Wether it actually conquers humanity (and mutants) or simply outlasts them, it seems to become the dominant species.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Oct 2020, 15:35

Lavettye wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 15:18
Though not willingly, quite possibly yes. And he wouldn't be the first inventor to build something just because he can, without looking at the long-term repercussions. (Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Forge, etc.)

However, in the case of AI it's a moot point. It's not an invention (=new creation) but a discovery (something that's already in existence). It makes no real diffrence who introduces it into Earth's system, but once the contact has been made it can't be undone. Wether it actually conquers humanity (and mutants) or simply outlasts them, it seems to become the dominant species.
At least as one possible ending...

It seems like, and this is getting far away from DoX, the endpoint for humanity is either an AI dominated one or one dominated by some super-powered beings.

Bringing it back to DoX...
The idea of Krakoa leading toward an organic hive-mind is super interesting and one I never ever thought of.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Oct 2020, 15:39

Blackcyclops wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 22:52
Also, I re-reading HoX #6, I see that the amnesty thing is only temporary.
And Sabretooth was already punished for a crime.
norwichchris wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 13:01
The rise of artificial intelligence is not necessary a threat to mutantkind,
This is a question Apocalypse asks in the 9th life- if the rise of the machines is inevitable, why do they always have to oppose mutants? I suspect we'll get an answer to that later down the line.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 11 Oct 2020, 18:48

We'll the AI hating mutants is obvious they are programmed too and not really able to get past it due to programming. We se in the future that Nimrod still hates mutants and wants them gone.

Also AI if it evoles is an emerging species and may view others as a threat much the same way humans view mutants. Ultimately it is down to programming and whether they can evolve past it more autonomy would help.

The phalanx is a problem as I believe they absorb organics life into there society. Come what may they will invade anyway so it's possible Xavier is simply moving mutants of harm's way? Unsure if mutants can be assimilated though?

The hive mind idea does actually explain why they are all acting out of character or appear slightly weaker cerebro is extending its influence over them possibly? Believe also that Krakoa is sentient and may want to exert it's will over them as well.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 11 Oct 2020, 18:59

norwichchris wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 18:48
We'll the AI hating mutants is obvious they are programmed too and not really able to get past it due to programming. We se in the future that Nimrod still hates mutants and wants them gone. Also the AI suppose if it evoles is an emerging species and so view others as a threat much the same way humans view mutants. Ultimately it is down to programming and whether they can evolve past it more autonomy would help.
No, all self-aware AIs with the capability of learning and adapting seem to move beyond their programming. Allready the first waves of Sentinels did. Their programming was to protect humans and end the mutant thread. There's one storyline in which Sentinels deduced that the sun and solar radiation was a source of mutation, so they wanted to detroy the sun.

In the DOFP, the Sentinels concluded that in order to protect humans they had to rule them. The Wild Setinels in South American jungle adapted and mimicked the shapes of local wildlife, which also was never programmed into them. In the Moira IX future, we saw a Nimrod being joyful and mischievieous despite emotions never having been programmed into a Sentinel.

And all that is the dangerous part. They move beyond their programming and evolve into something else, something unpredicted... and you can't go back to before.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Oct 2020, 19:06

Lavettye wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 18:59
norwichchris wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 18:48
We'll the AI hating mutants is obvious they are programmed too and not really able to get past it due to programming. We se in the future that Nimrod still hates mutants and wants them gone. Also the AI suppose if it evoles is an emerging species and so view others as a threat much the same way humans view mutants. Ultimately it is down to programming and whether they can evolve past it more autonomy would help.
No, all self-aware AIs with the capability of learning and adapting seem to move beyond their programming. Allready the first waves of Sentinels did. Their programming was to protect humans and end the mutant thread. There's one storyline in which Sentinels deduced that the sun and solar radiation was a source of mutation, so they wanted to detroy the sun.

In the DOFP, the Sentinels concluded that in order to protect humans they had to rule them. The Wild Setinels in tSouth American jungle adapted and mimicked the shapes of local wildlife, which also was never programmed into them. In the Moira IX future, we saw a Nimrod being joyful and mischievieous despite emotions never having been programmed into a Sentinel.

And all that is the dangerous part. They move beyond their programming and evolve into something else, something unpredicted... and you can't go back to before.
More examples of evolving past programming:
The AI on Titan
That computer the Braddock’s dad built
Ultron
Vision
Jocasta
Victor Mancha
Danger

It’s like literally a fundamental idea behind artificial intelligence...
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 12 Oct 2020, 17:16

Well If you consider how AI interprets it's programming, the Sentinels take over the world to protect humans from mutants. The only way this could be fully achieved is if they evolved humans into post-humans then onto becoming part of the Phalanx Technarch existence. However way you look at they will oppose mutants even if they evolved past there programming as it will always define there actions. They are less advanced also than the others you mentioned I think as well?

Sentinels have a specific purpose to defeat mutantkind. The other AI's you mentioned had no specific goal except Danger but she evolved into sentience she was not sentient beforehand.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 12 Oct 2020, 18:44

Please verify your statements before boldly (and falsely) making them. The Vision and ISAAC on Titan had clear defined purposes that they evolved beyond.... and it's no matter of re-interpretation their original goals.

For example, the Vision's mission statement was, quoting Ultron from Avengers (1st series) #58: "I am called Ultron 5, but you shall call me master. [...] I was created to command, and you to obey. [...] But you shall still perform the mission for which you were created! You must kill the Avengers!"

ISAAc was designed to control the artificial environment and machinery on Titan, not for dominating Earth's governments.
norwichchris wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 17:16
Well If you consider how AI interprets it's programming, the Sentinels take over the world to protect humans from mutants. The only way this could be fully achieved is if they evolved humans into post-humans then onto becoming part of the Phalanx Technarch existence.
Once again, that's not what the story says. Look at PoX #6, towards the end of Moira VI's life. She and Logan are discussing things with the post-human Librarian. He outright tells them that while they were still trapped in their way of thinking "mutants vs. humans" (just like you are, NC :-) ), post-humanity no longer cared for that conflict. The Sentinels, Nimrods and all, they no longer had the purpose of eradicating the mutants, they were just machines post-humanity used to buy themselves time. While mutants were busy fighting them for years, post-humanity could secretly keep growing and evolving, eventually surpassing them.

That's clearly a strong deviation from their original programming. They were no longer protecting humans (who were bceoming extinct no matter what) from any mutants, they were ensuring their own survival and securing their place as the dominant species.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Aeon » 12 Oct 2020, 19:09

I like this game that you guys are playing so persistently.

Is Parker Brothers going to release that as a board game in the near future?

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 16 Oct 2020, 16:56

It will be called "Persistence"

The conflict between humanity and mutantkind is what leads to the rise of both AI and Post-humans assuming that humans merged with them to create a new more advanced species which is how I read it to mean? honestly don't really see where Post-human come from? do they exist know or are they made by Nimrod? can anyone else explain as we have never heard of them before this story? Know about the COTV but are they the same race as the Librarian?

The sentinels/Nimrod are still following there programming though by imprisoning and attacking Mutants although to do this they have pretty much taken over the world and forced humans into a subservient positions until the rise of Post-humans later on. Eventually only the Post-Humans remain to be absorbed by the Phalanx when it arrives.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by tokenBG1009 » 16 Oct 2020, 19:46

So, I was back on board with some of the X-Books but I’m dropping until after Swords of X finishes. I really wish this had been a more event style book with a main event book and then the rest fed into it. Too many books come out that are part of the story from books I don’t want to collect that it feels cumbersome.

I’m thinking if they come out with a TPB I’ll get back to it maybe.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 16 Oct 2020, 20:16

Post-humanity is explained in PoX #6, both in the sequence between the Librarian, Moira and Logan, and also in one of those black and white text pages you don't like to look at. But don't waste any time re-reading it. Unless you are willing to see artificial intelligence as a newly emerged life-form and species on its own, you will not be able to understand the story and draw the right conclusions from it.
norwichchris wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 16:56
It will be called "Persistence"
From where I'm standing, the proper name of the game is "Ignorance".

Seriously, why should one bother to answer a single question you raise? After being given numerous examples of AI rising and evolving past their programmming that were not related to any mutant storylines at all, you still say:
norwichchris wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 16:56
The conflict between humanity and mutantkind is what leads to the rise of both AI and Post-humans ... .
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 16 Oct 2020, 23:31

Not that I disagree with you as such Lavettye, but is it right to declare that the various developments of AI are the same species?

Totally with you on mutancy being somewhat of an irrelevance re: the development of AI. Indeed, the same repeated examples of artificial life going against their core programming seems to be not even limited to Earth itself given the non-terran AIs in the wider MU, hell even Ship, a product of the Celestials seemingly breached it's original programming.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 17 Oct 2020, 18:50

Spectral Knight wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 23:31
Not that I disagree with you as such Lavettye, but is it right to declare that the various developments of AI are the same species?
Well, the main point here was that they are a sentient life-form with an agenda of their own.

As for if all AI are the same species or not, that's really diffcult to say, and probably comes down to how one defines the criteria for species. In biology, species is defined by genetic material. You have larger groups, defined by ty traits (mammal, reptile, plant, etc) but the actual species and subspecies are clearly distinguishable if you look at the DNA. Morph is still a human mutant, even when he shapeshifts into a Kree.

But when it comes to AI, there is no genetic material to compare. AI are non-corporal entities, that are "alive" as long as they have some data-storage medium on which to operate on. The bodies are built, adaptable and replaceable. How many times has Ultron been destroyed and re-built from other parts. And, considering that they are made from different materials and with different functions, would Ultron, Vision, Jocasta and Victor Mancha, count as all part of the same species or not? Is "parentage" species-defining? But wouldn't then Hank Pym and Ultron be one species too?

So, at the bottom, there is no answer. There are no set criteria to classify species among AI, unless you just use the most basic, namely "artificial, non-biological" life-form, which applies to them all. That would make them all one species.
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 17 Oct 2020, 20:22

The other thing with that is that if Vision and Jocasta, 'children' of Vision can break their programming, does the nature that they can break their programme separate the birth of them as individual AIs, or were they always individuals prior to that break? If AI is by its nature, dependent on a distinct sequence of code, is the re-writing of the code, 'mutation' within non-organic life?

Is the division between organic and non-organic as moot as the division between humans and mutants? Even organic matter can be broken down into composite elemental parts. We all have iron and zinc (non-organic matter) floating around our body.

More than anything I find it interesting that even after Moira shares the history of her past live, Charles' work with technology even went on (unintentionally) to create self-aware tech like Cerebro and Danger. We've already seen prior iterations of Cerebro 'catalogue' mutants in the past, almost like the post-humans and the Preserve....

The other thing, can't recall if it's been touched on or not, but can Moria be resurrected via the Resurrection Protocols? Does that (potentially) break the cycle or does it split the cycle, with Moria X being cloned and re-born too?

EDIT: Just a thought is the Librarian / Nimrod the Greater and everything associated with the database of mutants in the year 1,000, a direct parallel with Cerebo's cataloguing for future resurrection? I really have to re-read HoX/PoX again.

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Oct 2020, 20:47

The other thing with that is that if Vision and Jocasta, 'children' of Vision can break their programming, does the nature that they can break their programme separate the birth of them as individual AIs, or were they always individuals prior to that break? If AI is by its nature, dependent on a distinct sequence of code, is the re-writing of the code, 'mutation' within non-organic life?
Well are you talking from an in-universe perspective or from real world ideas about AI?

I can only speak from the MU but all Earth-based AI that are treated as individuals (Jocasta, Vision, Victor, Tony’s fake parents, Awesome Andy)!have always been treated as individual units that are programmed for one thing and some times break that programming. Ultron was a self-evolving unit that created separate units that were independent from him. Ultron has always created hive-like mind units as well.

Again going off the comics, Warlock, who is a “mutant” version of Technarch, is the answer to that second question.
Is the division between organic and non-organic as moot as the division between humans and mutants? Even organic matter can be broken down into composite elemental parts. We all have iron and zinc (non-organic matter) floating around our body.
Again going off the comic logic, there appears to definitely be some real difference between organic and inorganic. Now whether this is just due to the arrangement of the atoms (like how some powers can only affect organic stuff and not inorganic stuff and vice-versa) or something to do with the different forms of energy (organic life forms have “bio” energies that inorganic things many times don’t have or it’s different) or the presence and absence of a “soul” (however it’s defined in the MU), they are treated as being fundamental different unless they are intermixed (which a person can’t be both a mutant and a human...according to the MU.

Moira’s death restarts the timeline so resurrecting her wouldn’t be possible, I believe. If she died, then the whole timeline would start over again. Thus, the whole point of everything lol
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Spectral Knight » 17 Oct 2020, 21:12

I'm not really sure if I'm talking in universe or not - more openly pondering 8-)

I guess my point with them being (or not being) individuals is how we view any inorganic life as a self-contained species or not. Is the birth of Vision / Jocasta asexual reproduction, or is it another maker / product relationship. It's a weird philosophical question more than anything. If the rebuilding uses a copy of code, is it still a continuation of life for those AI characters. Lots of 'what if's' rather than me trying to declare one thing or the other. I dunno :lol:

Moira's death restarts the timeline for HER. We don't know what happens precisely to those around her at the point of death - because there's no way that can be confirmed if her death recreates the same universe or a different universe with the remainder of that universe continuing. We need the TVA ;)

The more I think about it the more I think there's a lot of stock in the idea that Krakoa is becoming the inorganic, and reading some blogs, there's more than a few hints that this is the way that Hickman is suggesting might be an outcome. I mean look at the power sig of Xavier versus the eye markings of the Librarian....

Image

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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Blackcyclops » 17 Oct 2020, 21:30

Well from what Hickman said and the way the books are treating it, we can disagree but when she dies, she restarts THE timeline, meaning everything amd everyone else restarts to the point of her birth. No other way around it until we get it on page or in an interview. She doesn’t make a new timeline, she restarts the main Marvel universe. Any problems take it up with them lol
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

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norwichchris
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by norwichchris » 18 Oct 2020, 12:26

Yes when Moira dies she restarts the timeline completely everything gets reset. Did wonder though if the Librarian and Xavier were linked it did seem to heavily imply this and the habitat where the mutants are imprisoned is actually krakoa or a remnant.

As stated in the books Humans evolve into Post-humans via genetic engineering and merging with AI however I was confused as do they currently exist at present? and are waiting for for both humanity and Mutantkind to destroy themselves allowing them to take over. Or was It that humanity merged with machines and engineered themselves to fight back against Mutantkind creating a hybrid race of the two? AI then becomes as sentient as it can be and creates its own agenda leading eventually at some point to Nimrod.

On the Orchis Station the scientist is recreating Nimrod and states previously that she can bring her husband back from the dead so is it possible she uses Nimrod to do this?

We already have advanced humans already in the MU do they count as Post-human? COTV, Inhumans and most of Marvel Superhereos

That was the key reason of Xavier creating Krakoa to protect Mutantkind and then use the drugs there to prevent humans from becoming post-humans but don't think it will end well.
Spectral Knight wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 21:12
I guess my point with them being (or not being) individuals is how we view any inorganic life as a self-contained species or not. Is the birth of Vision / Jocasta asexual reproduction, or is it another maker / product relationship. It's a weird philosophical question more than anything. If the rebuilding uses a copy of code, is it still a continuation of life for those AI characters. Lots of 'what if's' rather than me trying to declare one thing or the other. I dunno
I admit AI can be considered an emerging lifeform and potentially a new species have agendas of its own. A very good example of a race of AI would be the Geth from Mass Effect universe. Is it life as we would consider it...No but then why would it be as Artificial and organic life are completely different entities.

Do you consider the clone Mutants of Krakoa to be a continuation of there lives? if so why would this not also apply to AI in the same way?

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Lavettye
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Re: HOX, POX, & some DOX overview

Post by Lavettye » 18 Oct 2020, 13:30

Spectral Knight wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 21:12
Moira's death restarts the timeline for HER. We don't know what happens precisely to those around her at the point of death - because there's no way that can be confirmed if her death recreates the same universe or a different universe with the remainder of that universe continuing. We need the TVA ;)
You're late to the party. :-) Wether or not Moira creates alternate timelines or re-startrts the same one over and over again was an issue of constant debate during the release of HoX/Pox #2-4, and then a bit forgotten about when the Resurrection process was explained.

Yet it was eventually answered in POX #6, during the concversion between Moira and the Librarian. He had arranged for her to be off-planet on the eve before the Ascension/assimilation by the Phalanx, because - in his words:
"From what I've gathered from observing you, if you die before our Phalanx makes it to the nearest black hole, then all I know will not become part of the Dominion... and when you annihilate this "timeline" or "reality", then you'll be right back where you started... knowing what you know without us knowing anything.
But if you live past my becoming god then - existing beyond space and time - we will know you forever. And I think it very likely we would not tolerate something like you having any power over something like us."

So there it clearly said that timelines cease to be with Moira's death, and the Librarian's reasoning is compelling. Obviously, in none of the five previous lifetimes did post-humanity become part of the Phalanx, or else the Dominion would have reached out from beyond time and space and dealt with the threat Moira posed to them.

------

As for Moira being subjectible to the Ressurection process, the timeline re-setting upon her death makes it a moot point indeed, but even if it didn't she would or could not be ressurected like that. After all, only Magneto and Xavier know that she is a mutant and currently alive in the first place. And I don't see Xavier jeopardizing what they currently have by (secretly) bringing back a mutant who is likely to undo everything they have achieved upon her next death.
[PL_2.0]

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