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Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

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tokenBG1009
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Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 10 Jul 2019, 04:59

This post is sparked by a comic in Insipid's thread about Emma's big plan in Uncanny. Though, at the same time, it's been bothering me for a while with most of the ignition coming in the past few months since the Hickman Era was announced.

We're in an age where we know pretty much everything and what we don't know we brush away by things we do know. At least when it comes to comic books. We know that Hickman is taking the reigns of the X-Men this month. We've known this pretty much all year, or at least it feels like it's been all year. This has, basically, peppered everyone's opinion on pretty much everything that's been published since the announcement.

Rosenberg's Uncanny where multiple prominent, and some not so prominent, characters have died? Who cares, Hickman is going to reset it all anyways. None of this matters!

Emma Frost wipes the memory of mutants from the entire world? Doesn't matter, it's all getting thrown under the rug when Hickman takes over in a couple of weeks.

As I type this out, I realize that it's not just this incident or event that these things happen for. Any time a death happens in a book of any prominent character the wait for their return begins immediately. We've been waiting for Jean Grey to return for 15 years. We waited for Wolverine to return for two. Nightcrawler was dead and gone for three years. It never feels like people just accept that characters are gone. It's just "when are they coming back?" Death lost it's meaning in comics, not because characters are brought back, but because no one seems to be reading in the moment (roll credits) of them being gone.

I don't think there's really a fix for this. It's just something I was going to react to in a thread and instead decided to create a thread for it because that's not what it was about. I, personally, will skim solicits to see what books are coming, but I'm doing my best to just ignore interviews and grand announcements. I wish now I was just under the assumption that Hickman was just taking over Uncanny instead of him having a giant plan in the works for the future of the X-Men.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Magik84 » 10 Jul 2019, 11:11

I read everything on Marvel Unlimited these days, so the six month gap, can make it even longer wait as you know things are going to get shaken up!
In other ways its good as by the time I get to reading the comic, people have stopped talking about it, so I may have vague idea what's going to happen, but memory is hazy! I do avoid most discussions about the current books as well.

I find some of the small self contained books better to read weekly,like Runaways or Ms Marvel because generally they don't get big events shaking them up. With X-Men & Avengers although I sometimes read as they come out on the app, I actually prefer reading couple issues at a time, I think can get more into story that way rather than wondering about how its all going to change soon.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 10 Jul 2019, 12:09

I'll probably be making the move to Marvel Unlimited soon. The idea makes me want to read solicits even less since the time between announcement and actually getting to read it is going to be even longer.

Most of this is just me wondering if people know/assume a big change is coming and thus the plot points are irrelevant...why are they reading? Do people never go back and read back issues? Is God Loves, Man Kills a lesser story because Stryker returns in the future? Why not enjoy a story, if you enjoy it, for what it is instead of thinking "this won't matter" because you're aware of some big shake-up down the line?
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Cable » 10 Jul 2019, 16:00

It is definitely my least favorite aspect of comic fan culture that everyone always wants to be in the future. I like to try to avoid previews and solicits but then I find when going to talk about current issues people have already discussed it two months ago when they read spoilers before the issue ever came out. I would rather discuss an actual comic book issue than a two page preview and vague interview.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by RingOtaku » 10 Jul 2019, 16:09

The business has to let folks know new titles exist for the sake of subscriptions and shop orders. Saying who is involved staff-wise with the book is a good thing. This idea of solicits becoming trailers that tell you way too much plot and these mega-announcements so many months out. Nope.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 10 Jul 2019, 16:43

The thing is that, since everyone, Marvel more than anyone else, knows everyone already has some idea what will come after, the creators and editors have to take that in mind when making the book; so, a book like Rosenberg's, which is designed to create a dozen shock value moments every issue, ends up being misguided at best, since it will only lead to fans being annoyed rather than shocked or worried about the fate of the characters.

This fact should lead writers to tell either character-driven stories and/or in big ideas (hell, even great action), rather to try twists and turns that any savvy reader will guess with ease ("Will Wolverine died next issue?! Heh, don't think so, bub. If if he was, you'd make an event of it, again"), but that's not what they're doing, more often than not.

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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by InsipidLust » 10 Jul 2019, 18:25

I always try to approach every book in the moment, reading it as if I didn’t know about anything happening in the biz because I like to experience a story on its own merits I guess. I have never been someone who hated spoilers or anything because surprise is maybe the least important element of a story for me; I love for characterization and world building and the how of it all, so I tend not to even think about forthcoming runs or line changes and instead love to think about the possibilities of the worlds and characters rendered in front of me.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 10 Jul 2019, 22:53

Mind you, even without reading solicits or spoilers, just the fact that one has been reading this stories for a long time knows that stuff like all the deaths would never stick. Expect us to follow these books for years, but at the same time forget this every time we read a story is trying to have one's cake and eat it too. Specially considering how much X-men stories are self-referencing these days (which is something Hickman pointed out, the books are telling stories about other stories).

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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 10 Jul 2019, 23:35

InsipidLust wrote:
10 Jul 2019, 18:25
I always try to approach every book in the moment, reading it as if I didn’t know about anything happening in the biz because I like to experience a story on its own merits I guess. I have never been someone who hated spoilers or anything because surprise is maybe the least important element of a story for me; I love for characterization and world building and the how of it all, so I tend not to even think about forthcoming runs or line changes and instead love to think about the possibilities of the worlds and characters rendered in front of me.

^^^^

This
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 11 Jul 2019, 01:32

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
10 Jul 2019, 22:53
Mind you, even without reading solicits or spoilers, just the fact that one has been reading this stories for a long time knows that stuff like all the deaths would never stick. Expect us to follow these books for years, but at the same time forget this every time we read a story is trying to have one's cake and eat it too. Specially considering how much X-men stories are self-referencing these days (which is something Hickman pointed out, the books are telling stories about other stories).
It's not about just the spoilers though. It's the very thought "well, they're going to come back later" that I'm speaking of. Solicits/spoilers are a part of this, but the mindset of a lot of comic fans is thinking about the future instead of reading the story in front of them. Yeah, that character is dead in this issue and they may come back in a later issue. It shouldn't lessen the death.

For some reason, comics seem to be the only media I've noticed this trend in. In pretty much every book, movie, TV show, and video game the good guy ALWAYS wins in the end. We go into those stories knowing this, but it never stops people from devaluing the trials and tribulations that the characters go through. Comics though? "Oh, this death doesn't matter because they'll be back later."

I imagine it's part of the continuous story of comics, but that goes back to my original point of reading in the moment. If I just read the Messiah Trilogy I'm going to feel my heart break watching Kurt sacrifice himself. No one should really be thinking "this is pointless, he'll come back later."

It also goes back to my question about back issues. Is it just not a thing to read them anymore? Because even if it's your first time with a story, if you're a comics veteran then you probably know how it ends already.

If you want to criticize a story, do it on it's own merits. Is it just a bad story? Then it's a bad story. It shouldn't have marks against it because something else is coming in the future or because you know meta-knowledge regarding the story.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jul 2019, 01:42

@Token: I think given the niche-ness of comics and it’s history as the belittled-disrespected space of pop culture, there is a bit of resentment and cynicism embedded into the fanbase that feeds into that. We are a sub-culture that sometimes rewards people acting all smarter-than-everyone else. And cynicism (to go full circle lol) is one of the tools of the “I’m smarter than you, so I know better” crowd.

It’s part of, imo, the reason why comic fans (and “sci-fi nerds” writ large) are so possessive of their medium and it’s characters and why issues around representation get really serious in our realm. From being marginalized by the majority pop culture, a closeness formed within the community and the thing we nerd over becomes super personal. So when people do change, people take it so seriously (that’s at least my positive read on it and excluding the sizable racist, sexist, homophobic folks that come out the woodwork during that stuff)
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jul 2019, 12:14

The problem is the repetitiveness of the cycle- a death can still be shocking and have a deep effect even if you know the character will come back later (Kurt's death in SC is a good example of this). However, most of the time, it is not, because, since writers know they can kill characters with impunity (they'll always come back later) they often do it not because it's the best choice for an epic story, but because it will get people talking and (they think) will generate sales.

And here I come back to Sunspot- guy goes to the Avengers, achieves a massive feat in taking over AIM, becomes a very successful leader and perhaps one of the greatest Avengers, and then comes back to the X-men as a guest star in an event that barely has anything to do with the X-men just to die in a "sacrifice" that, despite some people say here, was absolutely pointless (couldn't Hope just copy Magik's powers? Or even the story told without the magic McGuffin?). And I'm supposed to be happy about it and "enjoy the moment"? Or should we give a pass because some people like the writer (once again, I imagine if it was a writer that the boards dislike, like Bendis; the response would not be the same)? At some point, one becomes numb to it.

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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Cable » 11 Jul 2019, 13:57

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 12:14
The problem is the repetitiveness of the cycle- a death can still be shocking and have a deep effect even if you know the character will come back later (Kurt's death in SC is a good example of this). However, most of the time, it is not, because, since writers know they can kill characters with impunity (they'll always come back later) they often do it not because it's the best choice for an epic story, but because it will get people talking and (they think) will generate sales.

And here I come back to Sunspot- guy goes to the Avengers, achieves a massive feat in taking over AIM, becomes a very successful leader and perhaps one of the greatest Avengers, and then comes back to the X-men as a guest star in an event that barely has anything to do with the X-men just to die in a "sacrifice" that, despite some people say here, was absolutely pointless (couldn't Hope just copy Magik's powers? Or even the story told without the magic McGuffin?). And I'm supposed to be happy about it and "enjoy the moment"? Or should we give a pass because some people like the writer (once again, I imagine if it was a writer that the boards dislike, like Bendis; the response would not be the same)? At some point, one becomes numb to it.
We never "know" a character will come back. The cycle of constant resurrections will only be tolerated if the fanbase accepts it. I refuse to accept it and will look down at it any time it happens. It is not the deaths that perpetuate this cheapening effect, it is the resurrections. Current writers have no control over what future writers do and I really don't think base their motivations on that. They mean for events happening now to be just what they are.

And apologies for the tangent, but the thing I find crazy about people complaining about Sunspot's death being in a tie-in, is that this is actually a positive about it. Tie-ins in which nothing happens of significance are shameless cash grabs, and yet people seem to suggest this is what should go on there. Tie-ins in which something significant to the franchise occurs are good because they are actually something worth reading. The suggestion the event had "barely anything to do with X-Men" goes against the entire idea of the MU that the books all share the same universe. An event this big should have involved the X-Men and it did (and to me its awesome that Sunspot was there with them in this moment of need rather than with Avengers). As for the idea the sacrifice was pointless because the writer could have wrote it differently, literally every story decision can be dissected in that way. In the plot that was actually written, for better or worse, it was definitely significant and with purpose. The only question in regards to this thread though is whether the previews we have seen of HoX/PoX make such an issue seem irrelevant. And really there is a whole separate subject worth talking about (the problems of events constantly running into each other in modern comics and thus threads getting dropped and not expanded upon).
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jul 2019, 14:17

Assigning intent to writers without actual knowledge of their intent is something I’m not comfortable with...it adds my bis to their intentions and really does nothing constructive to conversation...that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize a writer but to assert (with certainty) you know what they mean just doesn’t sit right with me. And again speaks to the ingrained cynicism/ “I’m smarter than thou” mindset I think we developed (I’m noy immune from this) as participants in a formerly marginalized subculture...
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jul 2019, 14:22

And truthfully, the thesis of Token’s thread really goes beyond deaths/resurrections of major characters (which are fair less common than fans complain about, while also being there from the beginning...but we have a tendency to overexaggerate things. We are a medium and fandom of hype, it’s just in the DNA of pulp fiction lol)...the act of looking forward instead of embracing the moment impacts a story that has no major things happening as well.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Cable » 11 Jul 2019, 14:37

Blackcyclops wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 14:17
Assigning intent to writers without actual knowledge of their intent is something I’m not comfortable with...it adds my bis to their intentions and really does nothing constructive to conversation...that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize a writer but to assert (with certainty) you know what they mean just doesn’t sit right with me. And again speaks to the ingrained cynicism/ “I’m smarter than thou” mindset I think we developed (I’m noy immune from this) as participants in a formerly marginalized subculture...
Yeah I agree. I mean you can speculate to a certain degree, but to state why writers do what they do is impossible unless they say so themselves. I think Rosenberg might be shooting for a certain vibe in his short Uncanny run (and honestly one that is in style lately with phenomena like Walking Dead and GoT). I was never a big fan of Fantastic Four because I viewed many of their stakes as phony. They aren't going to kill off one of the FF. I was attracted to X-Men though back when I read Giant-Sized and Thunderbird dies right off the bat (Claremont with those pointless shock value deaths. see also Karma a handful of issues into New Mutants though it was of course a cheap fake-out to generate buzz ;) ) because man the stakes are real for these guys and the characters can really die. Rosenberg has brought that back and it is awesome to me. The fact that a huge character like Sunspot can still be a casualty of war is a feature and not a bug. Of course this is bound to make readers mad who see their favorite character go. But again we are off on a tangent lol
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jul 2019, 16:06

Cable wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 13:57
We never "know" a character will come back.
Yes, we do.
Cable wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 13:57
The cycle of constant resurrections will only be tolerated if the fanbase accepts it. I refuse to accept it and will look down at it any time it happens. It is not the deaths that perpetuate this cheapening effect, it is the resurrections. Current writers have no control over what future writers do and I really don't think base their motivations on that. They mean for events happening now to be just what they are.
Every single writer that kills a major character today does so knowing full well they will be brought back eventually, and, in fact, counting on it. That's part of the reason deaths are more common today than they were, say, in the Silver Age, when there was an expectation of them never returning. it's silly to pretend otherwise, specially after "Jean Grey was on a cocoon" and Death of Superman. Do you really think that the people that wrote, say, Death of Wolverine, really thought Wolverine was never coming back, ever? Or that editors would allow so much killing if they weren't allowed to bring back anyone ever again?

Cable wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 13:57
And apologies for the tangent, but the thing I find crazy about people complaining about Sunspot's death being in a tie-in, is that this is actually a positive about it. Tie-ins in which nothing happens of significance are shameless cash grabs, and yet people seem to suggest this is what should go on there. Tie-ins in which something significant to the franchise occurs are good because they are actually something worth reading. The suggestion the event had "barely anything to do with X-Men" goes against the entire idea of the MU that the books all share the same universe. An event this big should have involved the X-Men and it did (and to me its awesome that Sunspot was there with them in this moment of need rather than with Avengers). As for the idea the sacrifice was pointless because the writer could have wrote it differently, literally every story decision can be dissected in that way. In the plot that was actually written, for better or worse, it was definitely significant and with purpose. The only question in regards to this thread though is whether the previews we have seen of HoX/PoX make such an issue seem irrelevant. And really there is a whole separate subject worth talking about (the problems of events constantly running into each other in modern comics and thus threads getting dropped and not expanded upon).
The sacrifice was pointless because the event has no significance for the X-men as a group, and for nearly all the characters personally, and apart from Sunspot's death, has no consequences to them, and none at all for the rest of the MU (was the X-men fighting and Sunspot's death even mention elsewhere?). And Sunspot had a brilliant circle of growth and development that was interrupted so one writer could have a shocking tie-in death, that, yes, was unnecessary, not only because Hope could replicate Magik's powers, but also because it was merely setup so Magik can save the day again, which she did in literally every fight the X-men faced in Rosenberg's run. He does with her more or less what Guggenheim did with Kitty Pryde, but people complain much less (and once again I have to approach the fact some people criticize other writers for much less; imagine Bendis' killing Sunspot this exact way, if there was much more uproar about Hawkeye or Wasp).

Also, it's impossible to notice that in more than 50 years, the X-men office only managed to develop one significant black male mutant character (Bishop) and turned him into a mass murderer and baby killer. Then when the Avengers do them a favor and developed another one, they literally kill him off in the first opportunity they get.

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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jul 2019, 17:33

Rosenberg’s run (beyond the first two issues and those had critics) isn’t getting much love on the boards (I think Cable is the one person consistently saying good things about it) so I don’t see where this “he’s getting off easier” than Bendis stuff is coming from lol He’s not a victim here...if you want to use someone who has actual goodwill around here, say Carey or Gillen or PAD or maybe even Remender...I would say Fraction but he got alot of flack back in the day too lol

Bendis (who again was pretty well liked up till his x-men run) aint even around anymore but he still sucking all the oxygen out the room lol
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Cable » 11 Jul 2019, 17:56

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 16:06
Cable wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 13:57
We never "know" a character will come back.
Yes, we do.
Nah.

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 16:06


Every single writer that kills a major character today does so knowing full well they will be brought back eventually, and, in fact, counting on it. That's part of the reason deaths are more common today than they were, say, in the Silver Age, when there was an expectation of them never returning. it's silly to pretend otherwise, specially after "Jean Grey was on a cocoon" and Death of Superman. Do you really think that the people that wrote, say, Death of Wolverine, really thought Wolverine was never coming back, ever? Or that editors would allow so much killing if they weren't allowed to bring back anyone ever again?
Every single writer doesn't do that and it is silly to pretend otherwise. Also Sunspot is a C-list character in Marvel comics. Not really comparable to Death of Superman. I feel like if Sunspot never comes back they will do ok with selling X-Men Comics. They couldn't do anymore Sunspot solo comics, but those don't sell as well as Superman and Wolverine solos do.

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 16:06


The sacrifice was pointless because the event has no significance for the X-men as a group, and for nearly all the characters personally, and apart from Sunspot's death, has no consequences to them, and none at all for the rest of the MU (was the X-men fighting and Sunspot's death even mention elsewhere?). And Sunspot had a brilliant circle of growth and development that was interrupted so one writer could have a shocking tie-in death, that, yes, was unnecessary, not only because Hope could replicate Magik's powers, but also because it was merely setup so Magik can save the day again, which she did in literally every fight the X-men faced in Rosenberg's run. He does with her more or less what Guggenheim did with Kitty Pryde, but people complain much less (and once again I have to approach the fact some people criticize other writers for much less; imagine Bendis' killing Sunspot this exact way, if there was much more uproar about Hawkeye or Wasp).
The event was about the entire Earth being conquered by Malekith. If you think the Earth being ruled by Malekith would have no effect on X-Men then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the shared universe. The complaints about story resolution are just complaints about liking certain characters or not. Personally I didn't like the outcome because Cable should have prevented all of War of the Realms with his time-travelling. Poor storytelling by the writers to not do that. Huge plot hole.
Usernamenotimportant wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 16:06

Also, it's impossible to notice that in more than 50 years, the X-men office only managed to develop one significant black male mutant character (Bishop) and turned him into a mass murderer and baby killer. Then when the Avengers do them a favor and developed another one, they literally kill him off in the first opportunity they get.
By your own argument they did this with the idea in mind that they will bring him back. Really there is no reason to be upset about Sunspot's death at all.
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jul 2019, 20:17

Regarding Rosenberg specifically, we know he killed at least one character he knew was going to be brought back- Sabretooth, whom we're already seen in previews and covers for HoX/PoX.

And, yes, every writer working in the Big 2 knows that there's a chance of someone undo or retcon their deaths or pretty much all their work- or simply ignore it. Nobody arrives there as a naive or innocent writer that knows nothing about comics- they all have been writing for a long time when they arrive, even more reading it, and they know this happens even to big names, let alone the lesser known writers.

While of course, Sunspot is not Superman, after Jean Grey returning, the revolving door of X-men resurrecting and dying never stopped, and if Marvel can ignore arguably their biggest story ever, anyone reading or writing it knows the same can happen to every story. The greatest writers these days are the ones that already have a plan to bring the characters they kill and use it for their character development (see Hickman with Johnny Storm) or to add a new spin to the characters other writers killed and/or do something that adds to the previous story (Brubaker with the Winter Soldier is the prime example of this- not only he did something new and cool with Bucky, but it added to the grief Cap felt about his death because the fate of his former sidekick wasn't death, but it was something even worse).

Malekith being a big threat to Earth doesn't really matter- it's not something X-men readers would have any reason to be invested in, and threats to the world are a dime-a-dozen these days. There's no reason to someone not reading Aaron's Thor already connect or care about that story.

And again, the look of "X-men office turns it's biggest black male character into a mass murderer, and when the Avengers office makes another interesting and important, they literally kill him the FIRST time they are using him" is undeniably bad. The fact that Sunspot will be back eventually (even Cypher did) doesn't change that much, since:

a) If he's brought back right away and his death has no real repercussions (it didn't so far) then his death would feel pointless (or even more than already does, depending on your perspective);
b) If he's brought back after a long time, then we were robbed of seeing him in the books for a long time by a story that is by no means epic or unforgettable.

And of course, either way this forces the next writer to waste his time coming up with a (probably contrived) way of bringing him back.
Blackcyclops wrote:
11 Jul 2019, 17:33
I would say Fraction but he got alot of flack back in the day too lol
Ah, Fraction. Like Bendis, he's in the "Looks much better in hindsight because of how terrible the X-books have been in the last few years" club for me.

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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jul 2019, 20:30

I loved Fraction’s run...it was far from perfect but it had alot of X-staples and was something very different and fun at times.

I wouldn’t say that point about Sabretooth like it’s a fact (unless you got more info than a comic and some wordless preview art) because #1 no proof that Sabretooth was actually killed or even intended to be killed (that’s assuming on anybody’s part either way...) and #2 you have no context for those previews, so please let’s reframe from the certainty.

Just an aside: I’ve never get that idea about Bishop...I mean yeah sure he was Black in that his skin color was black. But it’s not like anything he’s done and had happen to him really feels like an injustice because unlike Luke Cage, Falcon, Patriot, Miles Morales, etc and any number of Black American male characters (Bishop was Aboriginal right? Or is Storm still regarded as his grandma? Then how is he related to Gateway?), he never read as anything explicitly Black (and I don’t mean that in some narrow sense of Blackness in the USA or the rest of the diaspora or in Africa). He was just a guy who happen to have Black skin and very curly hair (don’t get me started on his locs ). You change his skin color and nothing about Bishop’s story changes (it would be like making Cable Black, nothing that has been with him makes his race significant)...except MAYBE, just maybe his time in district X.

But back to the topic of the thread:

I’m going to try again the PaD thing of not reading solicits for awhile and see how it goes. I’ve been more conscious of the cynical-smarter than thou mentality of the comic fan and trying my best to deal with that mindset. It’s a mindset that, as I said before, gives rise to false grievance and I’d be damn if I get like the alt-right lol

Insipid’s way of viewing things is how I’ve been doing things lately and it’s given me so much more enjoyment out of things in general.
Morrison Era 2001-2005, Decimation Era from 2005-2012, Bendis Era 2012-2016, M-Pox era 2016-2017, and Resurrxion 2017-2019, Hickman Era 2019-?

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Usernamenotimportant
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jul 2019, 21:38

Sabretooth was beheaded, so...Also, from the previews for HoX, we see him and Mystique fighting the Thing and The Human Torch, and they're wearing their current uniform, the one they're using in Slott's F4.

And I didn't say the things that happened to Bishop were just because he was black, since they needed a time-traveler to oppose Cable, but they went too far with it. Add that to what happened to Sunspot, and it doesn't look good.

And, mind you, even without reading solicits, you can figure out stuff- or did anyone actually thought Marvel would keep Strange, Spider-Man and Black Panther dead after Avengers: Infinity War, event without knowing their movies had sequels announced?

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UrbanExplorer
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by UrbanExplorer » 11 Jul 2019, 21:40

1 Cyclops is already hard to deal with here, now we got 2 of them.. :lol:

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tokenBG1009
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by tokenBG1009 » 12 Jul 2019, 00:24

So, as BC said, this isn't a matter of death being permanent.

Entire story plots are invalidated by the "this is going to be undone by a future writer" without even thinking about death. See Emma in Uncanny and her grand plan. It doesn't matter what is going to be written in the future. What matters is what Emma does now and the possible repercussions of it. What the next writer does is immaterial. There's a non-zero chance that this won't be undone for some time. Do we just sit and twiddle our thumbs waiting for it instead of enjoying the new potential?

When Wanda removed the abilities of most of the mutants in the world and no more mutants were being born did anyone really believe we'd never see a new mutant again? No, people love to make new characters. It was simply a matter of taking in the story that was happening. The same thing with the Terrigen mists sterilizing mutants. We knew it wouldn't last, but it was interesting to read about how our heroes fought through it.

"Major" Spoilers for Spider-Man: Far From Home (come on now, is it really?)
Spoiler: show
Did anyone REALLY believe Mysterio was a hero? No, but they still managed to tell a compelling story regarding him even though everyone knows he's a villain. The important part wasn't the reveal. It was the story. Sure, you could be all "of course, everyone knew this was coming" but the Mysterio reveal was never the point. It was the story wrapped around it. The reasons for people doing what they did that mattered.
All of this is to simply say, if you don't like a story that's fine! Just don't knock off points from it because you believe it's all going to be undone by the next writer. Speculate away at how the writer may wrap things up though because it's still their story. I've read multiple book series, some in shared universes like the Forgotten Realms, and speculated how the writer will wrap up the story. I don't wonder how the next writer is going to undo the story though. The story you're reading is the writer's to tell. It should never matter what the next writer has planned, unless it specifically has to do with the story being told, because any writer who comes in saying "I'm throwing everything the last guy did out" is a dick.

Also, no, it has nothing to do with liking a writer or not. I hate Chuck Austen's writing. I'm not sitting on my thumbs and saying how She Lies With Angels is a shit story because I'm waiting for Hickman to resurrect Julia Cabot. I generally dislike Kyle/Yost as writers, but I'm not hating on their Decimation stories because I know DeFillipis/Weir are going to return and resurrect Brian Cruz, Jay Guthrie, and Laurie Collins in a future story.

I just don't like the stories.

(I went back to death because it's been 15 years and I'm still salty about every one of those)
"Sometimes I do feel like I'm a failure. Like there's no hope for me. But even so, I'm not gonna give up. Ever!" -Izuku Midoriya

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Usernamenotimportant
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Re: Reading in the Moment (and why solicits suck)

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 12 Jul 2019, 00:38

I'm not saying one can't try to enjoy the moment or current stories (although the X-books make very hard to do that in the last few years), but if you try to a story that bases itself on shock value and deaths, it will never work- not just because in the long run, they never do, but because any shock is caused by deaths will be nearly non-existent because we know this won't last. Cable compared Rosenberg's run to Got and TWD- well, the latter lost a massive part of it's viewership over the years, and the former we saw the uproar due to ending and the last few seasons (I dropped both a long time ago)- but, still, no one thought that Ned Stark or Shane were coming back eventually, which is why the initial shock worked, and why early deaths like Jean and Gwen Stacy were so powerful.

The best stories work even if you read them over and over and the surprise is long gone, but shock and death are the only tricks Rosenberg has. Without it, he only has rushed plots, terrible characterization and stories being solved off-panel.

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