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Choosing a Leader

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Cable
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Choosing a Leader

Post by Cable » 03 Apr 2019, 14:06

Let's play a hypothetical. Imagine that the X-Men are now going to elect a new leader. They each get one vote and the candidates are:

Cyclops
Jean Grey
Kitty Pryde
Storm
Wolverine

Assume two rules:
1) It is a fair secret ballot. No one is reading minds or manipulating the outcome with powers of any kind.
2) The candidates themselves will vote but none of them will vote for themselves.

Who do you think different characters would pick?
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by das_boot » 03 Apr 2019, 14:36

Realistically, I can’t see many people picking Wolverine. He’s far better as a second than as a leader. Even during schism, he delegated a lot of responsibilities at the JGS.

As much as I hate to pick one of these characters, I think this comes down to a three way pick between Storm, Jean and (ugh) Kitty.

Storm’s a solid choice. She’s been a strong leader before but buckled a little under the pressure last time. I think that we’d see Jean, Betsy, Logan, Colossus, Gambit and Cyclops vote for her.

Jean’s shown potential in a leadership role of late. The truest representation of Xavier’s dream, for sure. I think she’d receive votes from Storm, Kitty, Rogue, Kurt, Laura, and maybe people like Lorna, Hank, Angel and Bobby.

Kitty I think would carry the youth vote. She’s not THAT much older than the vast majority of the new recruits, and I think that certainly people like new Pyro, Armor, Ink (UGH), Pixie et al would vote for her, seeing her as someone who would understand their struggles as new X-Men more than someone like Jean who has been dead for a long time, or Storm whose been kind of absent from a leadership role of late. Kitty gets the youth vote, easily.

I really don’t see many people voting for Wolverine. MAYBE people like Jubilee and Kitty out of a sense of loyalty, but I truly think that he would gain the fewest votes.

Cyclops... it’ll be the more pragmatic members of the team. Assuming they get votes, people like Emma, Magneto, the Cuckoos... for sure would vote Cyclops. Maybe Magik. I think that he might also win some points for being cool and revolutionary from people like Quire, but I also think that ultimately this goes to one of the ladies.

My prediction would be that Kitty and Jean would tie for leadership, and would therefore look at where their votes came from and split the leadership duties accordingly— Jean with the active teams and Kitty with the school/training teams, with Storm as a co-ordinator of sorts— however, I DO think that it speaks volumes for
Storm’s abilities as a leader that I think the majority of the other candidates would vote for her.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Spectral Knight » 03 Apr 2019, 14:55

Probably... Storm. Jean would run a close second, though could nick an upset.

Scott + Logan have rubbed up way too many members the wrong way, I think very few would choose Kitty if the other leader types were available + open to consideration.

(This doesn't tie with my own personal choice, which I think Logan's probably the best overall, precisely because he could delegate without it coming across too order-ish)

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by tokenBG1009 » 04 Apr 2019, 10:37

I can't see how people wouldn't vote for Cyclops. He's the heir apparent of Charles Xavier's reign as leader. He's the one who led them through their darkest times and was successful. Storm dealt with the M-Pox, but things didn't go well during her reign. She's capable of being a leader, and one of the best, but I do not see her being THE leader. The same goes for everyone on the list honestly. Each is more than capable of leading, but I don't think any of them can handle the responsibility of being the one to make the final call.

Jean - She'd be the School version of Charles. The staff as a whole would report to her in matters of the school.
Ororo - She'd be taking on the old duties of Scott. Probably leading the primary team that would be the face of the group.
Logan - X-Force, duh. Also just handling a team that just takes on more dangerous missions.
Kitty- Student Liason. She'd work closely with Jean in school matters.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Nu-D » 04 Apr 2019, 14:00

Fun game, Cable.

But I’m having a hard time following the rules (we all are, since nobody has posted a list of characters and their votes). In my view, the X-Men have too many different roles, and the relationships are to complex, to just elect a leader. The X-Men are more like a corporate conglomerate, where each corporation has a CEO and a vice-CEO, they answer to a board of directors with a chair and vice-chair, who in turn answer to the shareholders.

For the X-Men, the shareholders are divided into two classes—voting shares and non-voting shares. The non-voting shares are students, rookies, and hangers-on. The voting shares go to “true” X-Men.

The “true” X-Men will select a leadership team. The leadership team should be about 10-15 people, and there ought to be representatives of all of the factions—O5, ANAD, NMU, X-Force, and the newer generations. I’m not up-to-date on all of the characters current statuses, but assuming Cyclops is back in good graces, I expect the leadership team would include Scott, Jean, Kitty, Ororo, Warren and Hank. I don’t think Wolverine would want to be on the leadership team. He doesn’t seem like the kind of guy to want to sit in on board meetings.

Maybe Rogue, Sam, Dani, Monet or one or two others I’m not thinking of would also serve. There need to be liaisons to the younger students; someone who speaks as the voice of the students and rookies even if it’s not one of them. Each of the “true” X-Men needs to have representation on the board that they feel is a friend and confidant.

Warren serves as chair and CFO. His business experience makes him the right person to run the meetings and manage the money. Jean is vice-Chair of the board. Maybe Monet or Roberto are vice-CFO?

Kitty is principal of the school, and Jean is vice principal. Hank is an advisor. Various X-Men have teaching responsibilities. Some of the young X-Men serve in administrative and advisory capacities to the School Leadership Team. You could have Logan as self-defense instructor, and Armor as assistant instructor.

Kitty and Warren are also the public faces of the X-Men. They manage media, politicians, law enforcement relationships, other superhero relationships. They may delegate, of course. Hank and Rogue, maybe Sam, Roberto or Alex, are liaisons to the Avengers. But overall it’s managed by Kitty and Warren.

Jean and Ororo share duties as the School Defense Force. Scott is an advisor.

Scott and Ororo split duties as the X-Men’s CENTCOM generals—deciding who goes out on tactical missions, how to respond to threats, etc. They may take leadership for themselves on a field mission, or they may assign leadership of a filed mission to someone else as appropriate. Hank is a technical advisor. They rely heavily on advice from Cable, Bishop, Kitty, Rogue, Logan and a few others as to who's available and appropriate for missions.

Maybe Bobby and Dani are student liaisons—kind of like guidance counselors? Sam and Rogue are members of the board at large, and don’t have specified roles. Maybe Jubilee also?

It’s important that each of these roles has at least two people who can manage, given how much the X-Men die and disappear. If Ororo is tied up managing the defense of the School, Scott needs to be free to figure out how to deploy for external threats. If Kitty’s on a mission, someone needs to oversee running the day-to-day of the school.

But it’s also important that these roles overlap. For example, CENTCOM needs to know what’s going on with school defense, so Ororo serves on both and Scott is an advisor to the latter. Kitty needs to be kept appraised of school defense to run the school, and so Jean serves in both roles. Etc.

And of course, they all meet as a whole board from time to time to ensure resources are properly allocated and information is effectively shared. Warren principally manages keeping everyone on the same page.

From time to time, someone steps down or takes a leave, and the “true” X-Men will vote in an appropriate replacement or temporary substitute with the right skills and experience.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Blackcyclops » 04 Apr 2019, 14:12

I like what NuD did but my skin crawls alil when economic talk creeps into non-economic talk...it’s the Critical Criminologist in me lol
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Wings » 04 Apr 2019, 15:01

Cyclops- His brand is toxic among a large number of the more senior X-Men, although in the aftermath of Age of X-Man, he could gain some more followers. I can't see any of the other candidates for leader voting for him. Logan is with him right now, but no way he votes for Scott over Ororo or Jean. I can see a few of the younger generations voting for him too. Surge for example, I can see voting for him as while she disagreed with him at times, he was the only leader who even remotely took her seriously as an asset to the team and given the casualties the New X-Men have suffered while Jean and Ororo were absent from the picture. He garners enough votes to potentially form a splinter group if he wanted, as his greyer moral compass will appeal to the more morally ambiguous X-Men and X-Force types.

Voters: Emma Frost, Magneto, Chamber, Surge, Karma, Havok, Warpath, Hope, Doctor Nemesis, Namor, Marrow, Dani Moonstar, Frenzy, Danger

Wolverine- He's well liked and things were relatively stable for the X-Men under his leadership. But I think he's more comfortable as a second or as a protector of the school than he is at the head of the organisation. I think a majority of the others would recognize that too and Logan would totally encourage people to vote for anyone but him. Like das said, I think Jubilee would vote for him but given the amount who followed him during the Schism, surely he'd garner some votes.

Voters: Domino, Jubilee, Armor, Kid Omega, Warbird, Rockslide, Oya, Genesis, Rictor, Shatterstar, Multiple Man, Layla Miller, Shark-Girl

Shadowcat- As you can probably tell at this stage, I kind of see this coming down between Jean and Ororo. I don't know who would have strong opinions on Kitty as a leader but I think she'd manage as many votes as Logan and Scott. She'd garner votes from the New Mutants and the younger generations, as well as both Rasputin siblings.

Voters: Colossus, Magik, Rachel Grey, Cypher, Wolfsbane, Warlock, Husk, Anole, Bling!, Morph, Hindsight

Jean Grey- Again I agree with das that we'd see a lot of the pre-Second Genesis crew opting for Jean, along with members of her X-Men: Red team. Students who were at the school during her time as headmistress would also be inclined to vote for Jean. I don't think Cyke would vote for Storm, purely because I can see Scott seeing Jean's growth as a leader and wanting to help her continue to grow into a leadership role he probably sees her as more suited to than he ever was. The fact that three of the richest X-Men would back her would also allow Jean to garner enough support to continue operating a unit independent of the larger organisation if she so chose.

Voters: Polaris, Iceman, Cyclops, Archangel, Nightcrawler, Trinary, Gentle, X-23, Northstar, Sunspot, Hellion, Dust, Mercury, No-Girl

Storm- Among the senior X-Men, Storm would definitely garner the most votes, especially among the post-Second Genesis crowd up until the late-90s/early 00s members such as Cecelia Reyes and Sage and specific members of the New Mutants and later generations giving her the broadest appeal. 3 of the other 4 candidates would vote for her. Her vote is split by Jean and Kitty's but she comes out on top.

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Wolverine, Jean Grey, Psylocke, Rogue, Gambit, Beast, Dazzler, Shadowcat, Longshot, Bishop, Cannonball, Magma, Boom Boom, M, Pixie, Sage, Pyro, Cecelia Reyes, Firestar, Karima Shapandar, Triage, Tempus, Nature Girl
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Blackcyclops » 04 Apr 2019, 15:47

I think Cyke’s position as the morally gray guy has changed but the folks not experiencing it with him wouldn’t know it though.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by das_boot » 04 Apr 2019, 16:29

I think it would totally depend on their election platforms in honesty.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Nu-D » 04 Apr 2019, 17:12

If Cyke is still not trusted, all the more reason to pair him with Ororo and limit his responsibilities to tactical deployments.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Cable » 04 Apr 2019, 17:58

Nice character-by-character breakdown Das and Wings, though I agree with the latter that despite everything that has happened Colossus is likely still going to vote for Kitty and want to see her succeed. I actually think Nightcrawler is also someone who would vote for Kitty.

Notable unmentioneds: Banshee? Who does he pick? Also Forge? Does Cable pick his 'mother' or his father? And if Professor X is voting as of this point in time does he still pick Cyclops?
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Wings » 04 Apr 2019, 18:17

Cable wrote:
04 Apr 2019, 17:58
Nice character-by-character breakdown Das and Wings, though I agree with the latter that despite everything that has happened Colossus is likely still going to vote for Kitty and want to see her succeed. I actually think Nightcrawler is also someone who would vote for Kitty.

Notable unmentioneds: Banshee? Who does he pick? Also Forge? Does Cable pick his 'mother' or his father? And if Professor X is voting as of this point in time does he still pick Cyclops?
I meant to include Forge, who would totally pick Storm because like Piotr with Kitty, a part of him is always going to have heart-eyes for 'Ro.

Banshee, I didn' t include because of his current 'silent ghoul' mode. If he got out of that funk, and grew back that sexy Gen X beard, I imagine him voting either for one of 3. Storm, Wolverine or Shadowcat. Storm because she's a respected leader without 'I killed Xavier' or 'Dark Phoenix' baggage. Wolverine because of solidarity over how they view the kids in their care, or Shadowcat because of his desire to nurture the next generation and watch them take the reigns.

I think OG Cable would choose Jean or Storm. I can see him thinking Scott needs more time before he feels comfortable leading the X-Men as a whole as opposed to a survival squad. I don't know who Table picks. Probably Scott.

Professor X would absent himself from the vote in most instances. If he was voting, he'd choose Storm, who blossoms better outside of the school environment and advocate for Jean and Kitty to take care of the school, as Logan would refuse to hear word of him doing it again.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 31 May 2019, 11:33

This is an interesting question, but I don't know why are some posters bringing stuff from the Utopia/Bendis era, but ignoring everything that happened afterwards.

The people assuming most would vote for Storm are ignoring the fact she already led the X-men in the Terrigen era and was, sorry to say that, an utter and complete FAILURE, so much she shortly after quit and passed the job to Kitty. Plus, during the Decimation era, she quit the team in their time of direst need to marry T'challa; you know Emma and Magneto would bring both of these facts up.

By contrast, when we last saw Scott, he was leading a mutant nation in Time Runs Out and having a MLK-style march in UXM#600 with all the X-men around following him. Plus, he's the only one that already led everyone and if a situation required, would have everyone defer to him. Even during the height of Bendis run, you see Wolverine deferring leadership to him in Mike Carey's No More Humans. In DoX, you see him (or Emma's projection of him) leading Iceman, who was mad at him (for some reason) during Aaron's run.

And most important, people are assuming most characters would vote solely based on who's their best friend there, which is non-sense, even because many characters are friends with all of them. Rather, while some would follow their favorite no matter what, I think most would chose based on ideas- I could easily see, for example, Magik voting on Cyclops instead of Kitty if the latter wanted to keep running things like she did in X-men Gold pretending she's Xavier, and the former had a more realistic approach. Not to mention there are some characters that would vote based on whom their would benefit personally the most, and some of the younger members could be swayed with a powerful speech (which Ororo, Jean and Scott have been shown to be very good at).

Characters I think would follow for sure one of the others are:

Cyclops: Emma, Magneto, The Cuckoos
Jean: Iceman, Beast
Storm: Bishop (she's the only one that would take him), Gambit, Forge probably
Kitty: Colossus (although post non-wedding, I'm not so sure), Cypher, probably a couple (but not all) of the NM
Wolverine: Jubilee, X-23

The rest frankly could go on circumstances or platform. Not everyone could go to any of the others (for example, Warren would be between Scott & Jean).

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Spectral Knight » 31 May 2019, 13:08

A lot of posters tapped out during the Bendis era... I've certainly not caught up as regularly since he came on board, missing most of the whole Terrigen era, Death of X etc etc. Combination of funds and not really being as excited by the X-books as I used to be. It seems that loads of people who were dead (or had died) are back again, so I'm a bit lost, truth be told.

Anyway, as to why people think the X-Men roster might pick Storm? Because she's lead the team effectively on other occasions, and generally has the respect of her team mates. How many X-Men routinely question (or actively go against) Storm's leadership? Very few, with even the maverick characters falling in line.

Would I pick her as a leader? Nope, but I do think other X-Men would.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 31 May 2019, 17:50

Spectral Knight wrote:
31 May 2019, 13:08
A lot of posters tapped out during the Bendis era... I've certainly not caught up as regularly since he came on board, missing most of the whole Terrigen era, Death of X etc etc. Combination of funds and not really being as excited by the X-books as I used to be. It seems that loads of people who were dead (or had died) are back again, so I'm a bit lost, truth be told.

Anyway, as to why people think the X-Men roster might pick Storm? Because she's lead the team effectively on other occasions, and generally has the respect of her team mates. How many X-Men routinely question (or actively go against) Storm's leadership? Very few, with even the maverick characters falling in line.

Would I pick her as a leader? Nope, but I do think other X-Men would.
Oh, I'm not saying a lot of people wouldn't pick her, but this idea she would automatically win seems non-sense, and only works if you're selecting the continuity you want to follow, plus assumes characters would choose based only on who they like the most.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by das_boot » 11 Jun 2019, 20:28

I mean... I literally mentioned Storm buckling under the pressure last time she led a team, but okay 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jun 2019, 22:11

das_boot wrote:
11 Jun 2019, 20:28
I mean... I literally mentioned Storm buckling under the pressure last time she led a team, but okay 🤷‍♂️
I didn't mention you specifically, or mentioned that everyone was ignoring Storm's track record of the last few years. Just some posters.

And I agree with what you said about platform, this is the most important.

Of course, the whole concept that all these characters would run against each other is kind of bonkers anyway- no way Jean and Scott would run against each other, or Wolverine against Storm (but she would against him).

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by das_boot » 11 Jun 2019, 22:32

I don’t think that’s so ridiculous at all. If they have a difference of opinion that they feel is so fundamental to the way in which the X-Men operate as a team/outreach program/paramilitary group (I mean even THEN there’s three options as to what the team means to different members/public perceptions), I can entirely see them doing that. Certainly with Cyke being more revolutionary... could we really see the recent, more peaceful incarnation of Jean siding with someone who has made the decisions Cyclops has made since her death?
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 11 Jun 2019, 22:45

I don't see Jean judging Scott too harshly- she's shown empathy even to Black Bolt, even more to Cyclops and the tough choices he had to do, even if she might have disagreed with some of them.

I also certainly don't think she'd appreciate Logan using her name just to provoke Cyke, and if she learned what Logan wanted to to with Hope in AvX, I honestly see her not willing to speak with him again. Sadly Marvel will never bring that up.

So, if Scott wanted to run, I don't think she would and would be happy to just try to advise. Likewise, if running the X-men is something Jean really wanted to, I could see Scott not running at all.

Anyway, by UXM #600 and Time Runs Out, Revolutionary Cyke was essentially over- he successfully organized a MLK style march and was running his own nation, he essentially won the game and there was no need for that kind of approach- which brings me to people ignoring both events for some reason.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Blackcyclops » 11 Jun 2019, 23:28

It's probably not them ignoring them but moreso them taking those two events for what they were. 1) the "MLK-style march" (as a Black man, it makes me cringe comparing the two) was so poorly thoughtout or executed that it felt like in alot of ways it had no meaning or weight to it and 2( the details about Nation X were so light (all we saw was them basically in a bunker-style holding with Sentinels working for them...such a wasted opportunity) that it's difficult to really evaluate how good of an idea it actually was.

That said, I think that if the Jean we saw in X-Men Red was evaluating the pre-Bendis Cyclops, she might take some issues with him but at least she'd understand his circumstances (similarly, she'd have empathy for the path Logan took). I think it's too one-sided to assume she'd only take issue with Logan's naming of his school and not with some of Cyke's decisions. She'd probably reprimanded both men for behaving immaturely at times.

Now if Jean was evaluating post-Bendis/pre-Death Cyclops, honestly, his mission and ideals felt like such a pale reflection of what they were, I can't really say with any certainty what I think Jean would say about them tbh.
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 12 Jun 2019, 00:28

Like it or not, the march was extremely successful- it united hundreds, thousands, maybe even more, of people, mostly mutants peacefully protesting in front of the White House.

And what we have seen in Time Runs Out it wasn't a "bunker": not only we see Sam and Roberto actively praising Scott, we see Cap. America, who has SHIELD and Captain Marvel running out chasing the Illuminati, being wary of even coming close of Nation X and describing Beast and Psylocke, who were there, as untouchable. Ah, if Hickman had taken over the books right after SW like he wanted, what a waste...

Logan named the school after Jean only to piss Scott off, and with a reasoning to split the X-men that was, at best, impulsive and poorly thought out, and at worse hypocritical.

And we already know what Jean thought of Scott, Logan and the JGS- eventually, she and the other 05, plus Kitty, left in very bad terms, thinking they were liars and hypocrites, and joined Cyclops, and that without 1/20 of the shared history she and Scott have. And she worked well with old Scott (even tried to get it on with him and was rebuked) and even Emma.

That, of course, doesn't even take into account the fact that, despite her entire family being murdered by a connection with the Phoenix, Logan had no hesitation in trying to do the same thing with Hope, her granddaughter. That alone would make a well-written Jean possibly never speak with Logan again.

And I have to say Blackyclops, it's strange to see your choice of avatar considering how much you love WatXM and hates Bendis' Cyclops.

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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Blackcyclops » 12 Jun 2019, 00:54

There's alot of generosity given there to Bendis's run imo.

I didn't necessarily say whether or not I liked the march (I cringe because I find it bordering on offensive for Bendis to compare to that the march MLK did but I'm also someone who abhors the MLK-Xavier/Malcolm X-Magneto comparisons) but it's really hard for someone to say it was successful beyond the fact that Bendis had those people there and thus made it successful. Nothing felt earned about it, there was no real build-up or pay-off. It just kind of happened...sorta basically the entirety of his run for me and I think alot of people on this board.

I could have sworn all we saw of Nation X was literally 1)sentinels standing guard, 2)a bunker-like door (it looked similar to that one bunker from that 198 Civil War mini) and 3) snow. Unless there's a mini-series or something I missed, that's all we saw of the actual nation. That's very different than the X-mansion, San Francisco X-Men or even Utopia. As far this praise (which I believe you might be overselling by a tad bit given what I remember Roberto saying and Cap's words not coming off as though he was deathly afraid or anything lol)...that still doesn't really dispute what I said (which was really me just trying to give some possible rational to why people don't think highly of this point in considering leadership). There's not enough information for a fan to fairly evaluate how good or bad Cyclop was running things in Nation X I feel. Others may feel differently of course.

And I don't even understand the factual nature of the part about naming the school tbh lol...that wasn't why the mutant nation was split. That's like a total fudging the facts of things. He did name the school to take a piss at Cyke but that wasn't why they split.

And for someone who talks about people ignoring continuity, you can't really say Teen Jean doing something is the same as an adult Jean with all her other experience doing something (also let's not forget that Teen Jean and her team had their issues with Cyke's side too). And I won't rehash the argument about the O5 leaving. Also don't see the connection between the Shi'ar almost willy-nilly slaying the Grey family and Wolverine considering to kill Hope given all the information available to him at the time. Needless to say, my point still stands that Jean would see both men as having behaved unreasonably over that time.

ANd about my avatar, not to sound rude or snarky but one doesn't really have anything to do with the other lol. I think it's a cool picture, I think the WatX run was pretty good and find very little good abotu Bendis's run (besides Goldballs and Hopeless getting to write the O5 after him). If you want to discuss the Bendis run more in a favorable light, you could make a thread about it. I know at least token would participate LOL...
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Spectral Knight
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Spectral Knight » 12 Jun 2019, 05:17

Usernamenotimportant wrote:
12 Jun 2019, 00:28
And we already know what Jean thought of Scott, Logan and the JGS- eventually, she and the other 05, plus Kitty, left in very bad terms, thinking they were liars and hypocrites, and joined Cyclops, and that without 1/20 of the shared history she and Scott have. And she worked well with old Scott (even tried to get it on with him and was rebuked) and even Emma.

That, of course, doesn't even take into account the fact that, despite her entire family being murdered by a connection with the Phoenix, Logan had no hesitation in trying to do the same thing with Hope, her granddaughter. That alone would make a well-written Jean possibly never speak with Logan again.
Blackcyclops wrote:
12 Jun 2019, 00:54
And for someone who talks about people ignoring continuity, you can't really say Teen Jean doing something is the same as an adult Jean with all her other experience doing something (also let's not forget that Teen Jean and her team had their issues with Cyke's side too). And I won't rehash the argument about the O5 leaving. Also don't see the connection between the Shi'ar almost willy-nilly slaying the Grey family and Wolverine considering to kill Hope given all the information available to him at the time. Needless to say, my point still stands that Jean would see both men as having behaved unreasonably over that time.
BC is right. Teen Jean didn't necessarily act in the same way as her adult self would, as much as Teen Scott would have done the same things as his adult self did, as much as earlier Logan would have acted the same as post Decimation and during Schism as Logan did.

That's a massive logical fallacy. Looking at what we do know, adult Jean was pissed about the Phoenix continuing to mess with her and actually sends it away post resurrection. What does that mean for how she'd have coped with the choices available to them during AvsX? The truth is we don't know for sure, but what we can't do is base our interpretation of any reaction on the reactions of a far far younger character with little of the experiences (nor comprehension of what the PF actually is*) that adult Jean had lived through. With an alive adult Jean on Earth, would the Phoenix even want Hope?

*which is again a crucial topic which we've got contradictory information on if PF = Jean, or if she's just a host like any other. The whole chosen bond and return to the White Hot Room in Endsong seems contrary to the Phoenix trying to rebond in Jean's return as well as the Phoenix trying to go after Hope after bonding with Jean in the WHR. It's really messy.

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Usernamenotimportant
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Usernamenotimportant » 12 Jun 2019, 11:28

Sure, we can't say with 100% sure what would adult Jean do about it in WatXM and Bendis' run, but it is a good indicator that, even though she was told Cyclops was evil and off the rails, even a teenage version of her that only heard negative things about him saw that was non-sense and joined Scott instead.

And how would Jean cope in AvX? We don't know, but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have stood for the attempted murder of her teenage granddaughter. . Which, by the way, would have doomed the mutant race, and possibly the world.

And I'm not a big fan of Bendis run AT ALL, even if it has it's moments. Certainly doesn't make my top 5 X-men runs; it we include satellites, perhaps not even a top 20. It's just Aaron's X-men is absolutely horrible and almost everything looks good in comparison- well, almost everything that wasn't Extraordinary X-men or Gold that is.

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Spectral Knight
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Re: Choosing a Leader

Post by Spectral Knight » 12 Jun 2019, 11:58

The point I was making is that the scenario is unlikely to even have happened...Logan wouldn't have tried to kill Hope, as my understanding is that the likelihood would be that if adult Jean was around, the PF would've been after her and not Hope at all.

Secondly, Hope isn't her granddaughter at all. She is the adopted daughter of her step-son... now you could (and I'd agree) that the biological relationship doesn't matter as much as the actual relationship - Hope is to all intents and purposes Cable's daughter, but equally there was no relationship between Hope and Jean...at least none that could be considered a 'grandmother - granddaughter' relationship.

The whole nature of this conversation is very much dependent on what the PF is, and what it's relationship is to Jean and to Hope, and their actual relationship to one another. If Hope is 'part of the Phoenix' - does that mean any physical death that Wolverine had in mind would even be a murder if she was to be reborn as per Phoenix tradition? When the powers were overloading, Hope herself asked Logan to kill her. If she's part of the Phoenix, and Jean is the Phoenix, then does that make Hope part of Jean? It's all too messy for us to understand, even with the benefit of hindsight.

Neither Scott nor Logan are shown to understand the relationships fully, but Logan's intent was to prevent someone who clearly couldn't control the power of the Phoenix (she lost control and even the 'controlled' act of 'No More Phoenix' was shown not to even work given the PF returned yet again...) from harnessing a power that could and had killed billions.

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