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Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

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Flapflop
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Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Flapflop » 29 Sep 2017, 08:07

I saw this http://www.cbr.com/marvel-mistakes-that-need-fixing

As X-men fan #10 ofcourse but also #1,#3 an #12 because they are connected:

To many events that will "shake up the status quo" but in the end will have almost no consquences (timetravel, clones, split personalities reset everything at the end of the event) and then lead to (soft) reboot/relaunch (who are already announced so spoil the end of the event) but aren't given a long lasting impact/theme/story because the editors at Marvel wants to speed up to the next big event.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Blackcyclops » 29 Sep 2017, 09:40

Lost me as soon as they played the false equivalence game like a certain world leader...CBR’s listicles are so uninspired at this point.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Magnus » 29 Sep 2017, 16:37

15. "No core heroes"
13. "They don't have the guts to get rid of core heroes"

7 makes no sense. "Fans are mad, some think it's infested with SJWs and some think they like Nazis." Uh, okay?

I mean, yeah, there's obvious ones like event fatigue, too many #1 issues, sidelining the X-Men and such that we've all debated over the years, but a lot of these are pretty flimsy.

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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Cable » 29 Sep 2017, 18:49

Is it just me or is comics one of the mediums in which journalist and fan material is most indistinguishable? Like for video games I can read pieces by game journalists and pieces by fans and definitely know which is which by the professionalism. For comics, not so much...
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by perilous_siege » 06 Dec 2017, 03:10

Cable wrote:
29 Sep 2017, 18:49
Is it just me or is comics one of the mediums in which journalist and fan material is most indistinguishable? Like for video games I can read pieces by game journalists and pieces by fans and definitely know which is which by the professionalism. For comics, not so much...
LOL I agree, especially with the Buzzfeed/Jimmy Kimmel-inspired lists. However, it seems like this trend is spreading like wildfire everywhere.

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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by OffDaCheney » 04 Jan 2018, 00:49

Bendis, Perlmutter, Loeb, Feige, Ruffalo, and pettiness.
Last edited by OffDaCheney on 06 Jan 2018, 16:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by MrFOOM » 04 Jan 2018, 08:54

I completely disagree with No Guts.

One common criticism that annoys the hell out of me is when people complain that there are no stakes and nobody dies, then someone like Wolverine dies so Marvel gives us (very good) OML and All New series, and then they complain that they want Wolverine back it was stupid to kill him.

Or they'll say why don't take you take more risks, then Marvel or DC will take a risk and then they'll say boo we want something that's recognisable to the classics. I know there's a right and wrong way to take risks but I feel like when Marvel does it's rarely appreciated. There's a lot of things that Marvel have tried and I've loved it, for example I really enjoyed the slow burn trauma angle in the recent Hulk series, it's not something I expected but I thought it was handled beautifully at least for the first arc. But then you've got a lot of people just saying it's crap because we wanna see She Hulk we wanna see some action She Hulk is supposed to be fun and comedy, not realising for one the book is called Hulk and it's a very Hulk-like story, and not appreciating Marvel trying another angle with a character. Another was Secret Empire, I loved when it all started with Hail Hydra. I was one of the many who was shocked and thought it was bad but I said I'll read the comic before judging fully, and that series by Spencer was AMAZING. What a risk Marvel took and what good writing was coming out of it. But then of course the blind backlash hit and I'm pretty sure that resulted in Marvel doing some changes and the whole story ending in a mess.

You just can't win.

Also these CBR lists are almost never good.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by tokenBG1009 » 07 Jan 2018, 01:22

Yeah, saying Marvel has no guts is ridiculous considering they've been taking nothing but risks the last few years. You can either have Marvel take risks or get more of the same. Both cannot happen.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Jan 2018, 01:24

They want them to take risks they like...but all them colored people and women superheroes are not the risk they want.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by tokenBG1009 » 07 Jan 2018, 01:28

Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 01:24
They want them to take risks they like...but all them colored people and women superheroes are not the risk they want.
No, they're fine with PoCs and women folk. Just don't touch the white men. You can have Miles Morales, but don't mess with Peter Parker.

I think the only character in recent history that's been, mostly, immune to this is Laura.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Anna Raven » 07 Jan 2018, 02:23

Amadeus Cho seems to also be mostly beloved, which is kind of crazy because Hulk fans can be very picky. Just ask my friend OffDaCheney haha. But I think they built up Cho slowly enough, that by the time he became the new Hulk, no one had a complaint because people had fallen in love with him.

I don't understand why this is ok for people like Laura and Cho, but not Falcon and Jane Foster who have been around MUCH MUCH longer in the comics though.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Jan 2018, 02:52

I would make a comment on Logan being canadian lol But Hulk has the advantage of their being variant Hulks over time (She-Hulk, Red Hulk)...plus Captain AMERICA and Thor got some real specific white-ness things that some people stick to and feel shouldnt be changed
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by OffDaCheney » 07 Jan 2018, 18:41

Anna Raven wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 02:23
Amadeus Cho seems to also be mostly beloved, which is kind of crazy because Hulk fans can be very picky. Just ask my friend OffDaCheney haha. But I think they built up Cho slowly enough, that by the time he became the new Hulk, no one had a complaint because people had fallen in love with him.

I don't understand why this is ok for people like Laura and Cho, but not Falcon and Jane Foster who have been around MUCH MUCH longer in the comics though.
This is true, Cho's earned the love of even the most pugnacious of Hulk fanboys.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Anna Raven » 07 Jan 2018, 18:45

OffDaCheney wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 18:41
Anna Raven wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 02:23
Amadeus Cho seems to also be mostly beloved, which is kind of crazy because Hulk fans can be very picky. Just ask my friend OffDaCheney haha. But I think they built up Cho slowly enough, that by the time he became the new Hulk, no one had a complaint because people had fallen in love with him.

I don't understand why this is ok for people like Laura and Cho, but not Falcon and Jane Foster who have been around MUCH MUCH longer in the comics though.
This is true, Cho's earned the love of even the most pugnacious of Hulk fanboys.
See? I know of what I speak.

But yeh I do think some very specific fans don't like their heroes being "co-opted". Most of those fans I feel are casual fans, but given Marvel's dropping sales, who knows. It kind of feels like Dave Chappelle's Racial Draft, where now the black delegates took Captain America so the whites are outraged lol.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by tokenBG1009 » 07 Jan 2018, 19:51

Anna Raven wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 18:45
OffDaCheney wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 18:41
Anna Raven wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 02:23
Amadeus Cho seems to also be mostly beloved, which is kind of crazy because Hulk fans can be very picky. Just ask my friend OffDaCheney haha. But I think they built up Cho slowly enough, that by the time he became the new Hulk, no one had a complaint because people had fallen in love with him.

I don't understand why this is ok for people like Laura and Cho, but not Falcon and Jane Foster who have been around MUCH MUCH longer in the comics though.
This is true, Cho's earned the love of even the most pugnacious of Hulk fanboys.
See? I know of what I speak.

But yeh I do think some very specific fans don't like their heroes being "co-opted". Most of those fans I feel are casual fans, but given Marvel's dropping sales, who knows. It kind of feels like Dave Chappelle's Racial Draft, where now the black delegates took Captain America so the whites are outraged lol.
Well, what if we made Shaft white!?
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by grief » 07 Jan 2018, 21:40

I think that part of the reason has to do with the narrative the characters are in as well.

Amadeus and Laura are both filling in spots that are empty, those heroes are (were) dead. And while yeah, they've been replaced, I also feel like a) Amadeus and Laura have been in the extended cast of their "main" hero for years now; they are safe, enjoyable, well respected characters and b) we all know that this won't last forever.

Sam and Jane have VERY different circumstances that surround their characters. You HAVE to take into consideration the most basic of changes - Sam is a black man and Jane is a woman, both things that Classical Captain America and Classical Thor are not. I can see the Anti-Black message that Captain America is supposed to represent ALL of America (which White America thinks is, yeah, mostly White) and it doesn't make sense for a minority to represent the whole country. But Sam ALSO had the added problems of the Jet Black/Sam sex scene in Remender's Cap which not only got a lot of flak, but Remender's poor reaction didn't help. I also believe that the VERY political nature of Sam's solo post-Secret Wars made him an additionally divisive character. I mean, it made NATIONAL NEWS that Captain America was defending illegal immigrants and fighting villains that the story intentionally made sound like right wingers. This wasn't just an issue of "You've replaced Captain America!" it's "You're version of Captain America doesn't stand for what I believe America stands for!" Remender may have changed Cap's race, but Spencer changed Cap's politics (not SAM'S politics - but the perceived politics that Cap stands for).
For Jane, I think that the problem was two fold. The first is that Thor isn't a costumed guise or a secret identity - it's the character's NAME. It'd be like if one day I just woke up and someone had possession of all my stuff and was going around living my life, using my name. That's weird man. I had a long and hard argument with one of my friends who could not would not accept the idea that the name of Thor goes with the hammer, not the person. (To be fair, my argument was pretty much that Thor was being awesomely written, so I don't care WHOSE name is stolen or what, the book is GOOD. Nothing else matters.) The second is that Odinson was UNWORTHY. He was NOT GOOD. This character you like? Suddenly he's a loser. Replaced by this mysterious figure for reasons unknown. I think that the real slight here was the damage done to Odinson and letting the character live - if he had died and Mjolnir went to Jane, I bet there'd have been 30% less crying.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by RingOtaku » 07 Jan 2018, 21:57

Funny thing is I kind of enjoy the cameos of Unworthy Thor. I feel like if "Odinson" remembers this era after he gets his hammer back, whenever that is, he'll be a more interesting character. It's the problems I have had with Herc. Both guys need a cycle of humbling phases.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Jan 2018, 23:41

*undocumented immigrants*

The Jane one is still weird cause Beta Ray Bill and Masterson both came about with some pretty iffy ways that did involve saying Thor wasn’t worthy or was doing something “wrong”.

Olus even with Cho and Laura there’s still resentment for what they stood for. Laura experiences the least because OML exists wnd X-fans in general seem to be more accepting. Miles caught alot of flack for replacing dead Ultimate Peter too...
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by Anna Raven » 08 Jan 2018, 00:09

Well tbh I was one of those up in arms about killing Ultimate Peter Parker. I didn't have anything against Miles but I didn't like that Peter was dead, I felt as if they hadn't explored everything they could have with the character, he wasn't even out of high school yet.

Maybe I should cut some of these angry fanboys some slack, maybe it's not that they are anti-Jane, so much as pro-Odinson. Except, that as soon as I say something forgiving like that, someone says something racist or sexist which causes me to groan inwardly again.

As to your point grief, that calling Odinson unworthy, meant he was bad, it was entirely the opposite. Odinson is a great and mighty hero who carries enormous expectations for himself, his unworthiness stemmed from his inability to meet those expectations for himself, not anything about his overall goodness. But of course, you'd have to read the stories to grasp that nuance, and most of the enraged group are too angry to read the actual books.
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Re: Broken Legacy: 15 Mistakes In Marvel Comics

Post by grief » 08 Jan 2018, 20:17

RingOtaku wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 21:57
Funny thing is I kind of enjoy the cameos of Unworthy Thor. I feel like if "Odinson" remembers this era after he gets his hammer back, whenever that is, he'll be a more interesting character. It's the problems I have had with Herc. Both guys need a cycle of humbling phases.
Absolutely. This is the dramatic arc for ANY good character. They need to learn or overcome SOMETHING and, for Aaron's Thor, having possession of Mjolnir and being Worthy are the most important things in the world. He has fought for this honor since the days of Young Thor and he's currently caught in the grip of what I'd call a depressive episode. He doesn't think he's worthy, so he acts unworthy, reinforcing why he's unworthy to being with. But he'll learn from this and come out the other side a better, wiser, more mature Thor and he will kick much ass.
Blackcyclops wrote:
07 Jan 2018, 23:41
The Jane one is still weird cause Beta Ray Bill and Masterson both came about with some pretty iffy ways that did involve saying Thor wasn’t worthy or was doing something “wrong”.
But you're also viewing those stories with the benefit of time and hindsight. I would have LOVED to have been a fan on the Internet when Beta Ray Bill or Eric became Thor, or when Rhodey became Iron Man for a time. I bet there were people crying about it then who love it now because it's such a classic phase. Sometimes people need to be won over. I've seen a couple of posts or tweets or letters to Dan Slott wherein the author said they hated Slott for initially killing Peter, but came to love the Superior arc and what Slott did over all.
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 00:09
Well tbh I was one of those up in arms about killing Ultimate Peter Parker. I didn't have anything against Miles but I didn't like that Peter was dead, I felt as if they hadn't explored everything they could have with the character, he wasn't even out of high school yet.
I wasn't up in arms, but I was a bit miffed myself for the same reason. When I thought about it though, I found that I had to ask: When IS it time to kill a character? When you've run out of things to say? Is that possible with a well-built, interesting character like Spider-Man, who has a world built around him? And is it GOOD to wait to kill him then? Should we be glad to go "Oh thank God, you finally put this guy outta my misery." Cuz I personally think that would be bad story telling. If Bendis waited until he had told ALL the stories he possibly could with Peter, then I think we'd still be getting those stories. And maybe they'd be bad! We don't know! I, ultimately (pun intended), think that the story you get from the character's death is what matters. No character should be "ready" to die, cuz then who cares?
Anna Raven wrote:
08 Jan 2018, 00:09
As to your point grief, that calling Odinson unworthy, meant he was bad, it was entirely the opposite. Odinson is a great and mighty hero who carries enormous expectations for himself, his unworthiness stemmed from his inability to meet those expectations for himself, not anything about his overall goodness. But of course, you'd have to read the stories to grasp that nuance, and most of the enraged group are too angry to read the actual books.
Absolutely 100%. Every discussion I've had with people regarding Jane as Thor or Laura as Wolverine have both been from a place where the other person didn't read the books those stories were happening in. They just didn't like the idea. I lent the first arc of All-New Wolverine to one of my comic buying friends and he was super skeptical - but I sold him on it. He actually added it to his pull list when he'd finished my copies.
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