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Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 09 Mar 2019, 19:15
by Blackcyclops
Cable wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 18:36
Blackcyclops wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 14:46
If it is Wally, I trust King as a writer. Honestly, he’s probably the best “new” comic writer at either company right now (really any).
Better than Al Ewing? Idk about that.
(Lemire is also very good but his X-Men for whatever reason was not up to par)

Btw I don't read DC, anyone who does how has Bendis been doing over there? Rejuvenated by the change of scenery or still meh?

I only say that because I think paired together Vision and Mister Miracle are the two best series written at the big 2 in two decades or possibly more...

Bendis has been doing pretty good so far...but he’s still doing alot of Avengers disassembled-esque “changing everything” stuff.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 21 Apr 2019, 18:23
by Dragonzombie
I wish it was Wally

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 16:06
by Fenix
HiC 8 out today.
My worst fear made alive.

I hate King with all my guts right now.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 17:23
by RingOtaku
Fenix wrote:
09 Mar 2019, 14:09
bamf wrote:
08 Mar 2019, 22:14
I’m going to be REALLY upset if it turns out to be Wally. Just DC dragging him through the mud some more.
If that happens I will quit DC forever.
That would be just too much.
Wally is untouchable. They have done more than enough to mess his character and destroy everything he was for nearly 25 years.
"Does Wally have a single fan left?" "Yes Sir" "Ruin Him More... but be mysterious about it so we can sucker in the sales. Obviously if folks know it is a Wally story they won't buy it because he sucks" "Sir we have sales figures from over a decade of his solo book.." "I said WALLY SUCKS"

Weekly DC Meeting? Or not mean enough?

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 19:29
by Dragonzombie
Really good book.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 26 Apr 2019, 14:38
by Blackcyclops
Strongly disagree...that Wally reveal was just a total failure. People got mad about Cap becoming HydraCap but at least Spencer 1)did a good enough setup and rationale (Cap’s whole past was altered) and 2)really dug into his ideology. HydraCap was an indictment of the strong-man authoritarian framework. This book was supposed to be an allegory to mass shootings but by making it an “accident” it sets up a horrible proposition about people who commit such atrocities.

If this was the result of Wally having an actual break because of his loss then cool...I’m okay with that. I wouldn’t feel like it dirted the character...good people break all the time and no one would be as understandable as Wally. But the fact that he covers up the crime by blaming two other people? That makes him a villain and not a break hero...even Jean Loring is wasn’t as bad. At least there her break felt earned and her coverup was just to help herself, not harm others.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 27 Apr 2019, 11:04
by tokenBG1009
Reading a synopsis of this puts a really bad taste in my mouth. I get the grief, the loss, and the trauma that Wally's going through. That all makes sense when you're the only person who remembers your family. I even understand the fear of others misunderstanding that what happened was an accident. I don't understand framing two others just so you'd have time to "do the right thing" when you could have just not done the wrong thing in the first place.

I'd be more okay with the idea if this was revealed in Issue 4 or 5. To have Wally wanting to "atone" for what he's done in the final issue of the story seems inadequate at best and sequel-baiting at worst.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 27 Apr 2019, 19:51
by Dragonzombie
The book is about Wally mentally breaking down, and trying to cope with the loss of a non existent family.  The cover up is just Wally panic attacking and trying to divert attention away. Understandable for someone who is confused and buying time.

I don't see anything about school shooters in this, school shooters are created by other social problems created by society.

What Jean done was evil, so was Hal but they were breakdowns too. Wally can always fixed by retcons like they were too.

Hydra Cap is just a construct with fake memories in the end in real Steves body.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 27 Apr 2019, 23:16
by Blackcyclops
King literally said this story was inspired by school shootings...like in actual interviews before it came out. He said it’s a fear he has about his son going to school and he can explore that idea in a comic cause he’s a “crazy” comic writer or something.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 28 Apr 2019, 00:24
by Blackcyclops
Dragonzombie wrote:
27 Apr 2019, 19:51
The book is about Wally mentally breaking down, and trying to cope with the loss of a non existent family.  The cover up is just Wally panic attacking and trying to divert attention away. Understandable for someone who is confused and buying time.


What Jean done was evil, so was Hal but they were breakdowns too. Wally can always fixed by retcons like they were too.

Hydra Cap is just a construct with fake memories in the end in real Steves body.
Okay maybe I read the book wrong but this is what happened to me:
Wally was in grief about having lost so much
He believes that no one else can relate
He finds out all the other heroes can relate (I still don’t know how he gathered “data” but okay) but it overwhelms him...
He loses control of his powers (because of this epiphany he has) and kills everyone in Sanctuary..

Now at this point I can at least stomach the story that is going on...because yes it’s similar to Jean as the Phoenix maybe or really The New Warrior’s situation with Nitro but this where things go off the rails.

Wally then proceeds to stage a crime scene, setup 2 emotionally disturbed people, and then kill his future self (which okay I get it) and we’re supposed to believe he was going to make it right in 5 days.

Sorry, that just describes a sociopath to me...not a broken man. A broken man wouldn’t do the things he did after the fact.

See let’s check out the examples you pointed out.

Jean (pre-retcon) was overwhelmed by the power of “God” and killed billions but then sacrificed herself (and the power of “God”) because she knew it was wrong. She took control and as an act of mercy and strength, ended her own life. That’s a story of a fall but also a person making the greatest sacrifice for everyone. A beautifully tragic story...

Hal (pre-retcon) lost everything and snapped and then had a twisted way of seeing the world. He did some villainous stuff but he at least 1)had noble intentions (he really wanted to save Coast city) and 2)he took responsibility for what he did. It was a fall...

Hydra Cap is straight up and down an alteration to the history of Cap. So this wasn’t Cap breaking or falling, it was his story being re-told through an eye that promotes authoritarianism. And in the end, the good part of Cap (the hope) won out.

Hal always took responsibility for his dark turn. He never put the blame on others.

Jean wasn’t in control but still fought through that and made an actually noble sacrifice. And even still she never placed the blame on other heroes or try to deceive anyone.

And HydraCap wasn’t Steve, so he’s different.

Maybe King has 1 last trick up his sleeve but so far he’s made Wally not just a man who lost control of his power while dealing with psychological problems, he went the extra mile of framing otherS. And that’s really low...I’m not saying he’s irredeemable but damn King lol

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 Apr 2019, 18:01
by Fenix
Blackcyclops wrote:
28 Apr 2019, 00:24
Dragonzombie wrote:
27 Apr 2019, 19:51
The book is about Wally mentally breaking down, and trying to cope with the loss of a non existent family.  The cover up is just Wally panic attacking and trying to divert attention away. Understandable for someone who is confused and buying time.


What Jean done was evil, so was Hal but they were breakdowns too. Wally can always fixed by retcons like they were too.

Hydra Cap is just a construct with fake memories in the end in real Steves body.
Okay maybe I read the book wrong but this is what happened to me:
Wally was in grief about having lost so much
He believes that no one else can relate
He finds out all the other heroes can relate (I still don’t know how he gathered “data” but okay) but it overwhelms him...
He loses control of his powers (because of this epiphany he has) and kills everyone in Sanctuary..

Now at this point I can at least stomach the story that is going on...because yes it’s similar to Jean as the Phoenix maybe or really The New Warrior’s situation with Nitro but this where things go off the rails.

Wally then proceeds to stage a crime scene, setup 2 emotionally disturbed people, and then kill his future self (which okay I get it) and we’re supposed to believe he was going to make it right in 5 days.

Sorry, that just describes a sociopath to me...not a broken man. A broken man wouldn’t do the things he did after the fact.

See let’s check out the examples you pointed out.

Jean (pre-retcon) was overwhelmed by the power of “God” and killed billions but then sacrificed herself (and the power of “God”) because she knew it was wrong. She took control and as an act of mercy and strength, ended her own life. That’s a story of a fall but also a person making the greatest sacrifice for everyone. A beautifully tragic story...

Hal (pre-retcon) lost everything and snapped and then had a twisted way of seeing the world. He did some villainous stuff but he at least 1)had noble intentions (he really wanted to save Coast city) and 2)he took responsibility for what he did. It was a fall...

Hydra Cap is straight up and down an alteration to the history of Cap. So this wasn’t Cap breaking or falling, it was his story being re-told through an eye that promotes authoritarianism. And in the end, the good part of Cap (the hope) won out.

Hal always took responsibility for his dark turn. He never put the blame on others.

Jean wasn’t in control but still fought through that and made an actually noble sacrifice. And even still she never placed the blame on other heroes or try to deceive anyone.

And HydraCap wasn’t Steve, so he’s different.

Maybe King has 1 last trick up his sleeve but so far he’s made Wally not just a man who lost control of his power while dealing with psychological problems, he went the extra mile of framing otherS. And that’s really low...I’m not saying he’s irredeemable but damn King lol
I agree with you totally.
Suffering, having a PSTD, having an accident, even killing his former friends or colleagues in that accident... its all relatable.
Wally has been through a lot, even more since he came back in Rebirth and we can see where this comes from.

This said Wally had one of the most interesting and amazing character arcs.
He was a sidekick who took over after his mentor died and became the Flash for several generations of readers not only rising to the challenge of filling his mentor's shoes but becoming the fastest Flash ever, the most experienced and having a beautiful kind-of happy ending with Linda and his twins.
His role with the Justice League Europe/International/of America set Wally up as the reference of heroics, one of the big 7, able to overcome literally ANYTHING, a loyal friend and colleague, having his own Flash family (something Barry didnt have)...

What King has done here is something different.
As BC pointed out he made Wally a bloody sociopath, a villain pretty much in line with Zoom or Prometheus.
Covering his accident, traveling in time to further cover it instead of using this time travel to prevent the events from happening, framing Booster (his friend) and Harley... this is not something Wally would have ever done.
God, he even exposed his former friends and colleagues to the press... why?

So if King wanted to effectively destroy Wally and complete his character assassination... congrats, he did it.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 00:12
by Fenix
After reading the last issue I just feel like this series was totally unnecessary and painful, and all my opinions remain the same.
Spoiler: show
King did a great job killing off many characters including Arsenal and lots of C-List (some of them I actually liked), assembling Blue and Gold again and destroying Wally West in the process.
Only time travel and an universal reset can solve it, for now Wally is a terrific villain out of the "best intentions" and will remain in jail as the villain King just created.
This is not my Wally, this is not my Flash.
DC continues going down.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 15:32
by MartijnB
ok... this story annoys me SO much...

the ending sucked...now that's fine in itself... lackluster endings have been around across all media for ages, I have long since learned to accept that...

But THIS story more than any other comic book story I ever read, I WANTED to succeed, it HAD to be good... when I saw the premise and read the first few issues, I saw sooooooo much potential in this, the theme of mental health projected on one of the two quintessential superhero communities in fiction... it was pure gold.

bleh

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 17:58
by RingOtaku
So when it was all said all I got from this was "We tried to bench Wally and it didn't work. We tried to erase Wally and it didn't work. Now we made him a scumbag of a villain. This isn't our fault. The fans made us do it, if they just let us have back our childhood Flash with Barry and not ask questions or want their childhood Flash in Wally then we wouldn't have had to be this mean. The fans made us ruin Wally instead of just sideline him. What were we supposed to do, listen to the fanbase and not continue to push Barry at the expense of Wally?"

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 18:27
by Anna Raven
RingOtaku wrote:
30 May 2019, 17:58
So when it was all said all I got from this was "We tried to bench Wally and it didn't work. We tried to erase Wally and it didn't work. Now we made him a scumbag of a villain. This isn't our fault. The fans made us do it, if they just let us have back our childhood Flash with Barry and not ask questions or want their childhood Flash in Wally then we wouldn't have had to be this mean. The fans made us ruin Wally instead of just sideline him. What were we supposed to do, listen to the fanbase and not continue to push Barry at the expense of Wally?"
This is one of my biggest issues with modern DC. Whereas Marvel seems to find a way to incorporate both Cap and Falcon, Tony and Rhodey, Logan and Laura, Hulk and Cho, Carol and Kamala, Peter and Miles, etc. etc. DC goes out of their way to feature only one version of a character at a time. It's like the name of the superhero is more important than the character in the suit.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 20:29
by RingOtaku
Anna Raven wrote:
30 May 2019, 18:27
RingOtaku wrote:
30 May 2019, 17:58
So when it was all said all I got from this was "We tried to bench Wally and it didn't work. We tried to erase Wally and it didn't work. Now we made him a scumbag of a villain. This isn't our fault. The fans made us do it, if they just let us have back our childhood Flash with Barry and not ask questions or want their childhood Flash in Wally then we wouldn't have had to be this mean. The fans made us ruin Wally instead of just sideline him. What were we supposed to do, listen to the fanbase and not continue to push Barry at the expense of Wally?"
This is one of my biggest issues with modern DC. Whereas Marvel seems to find a way to incorporate both Cap and Falcon, Tony and Rhodey, Logan and Laura, Hulk and Cho, Carol and Kamala, Peter and Miles, etc. etc. DC goes out of their way to feature only one version of a character at a time. It's like the name of the superhero is more important than the character in the suit.
But it has to be THEIR favorite version. Barry could have stayed dead. He could have revived for Final Crisis then retired in peace with Iris. NOPE.

Re: Heroes in Crisis

Posted: 30 May 2019, 21:09
by tokenBG1009
Anna Raven wrote:
30 May 2019, 18:27
RingOtaku wrote:
30 May 2019, 17:58
So when it was all said all I got from this was "We tried to bench Wally and it didn't work. We tried to erase Wally and it didn't work. Now we made him a scumbag of a villain. This isn't our fault. The fans made us do it, if they just let us have back our childhood Flash with Barry and not ask questions or want their childhood Flash in Wally then we wouldn't have had to be this mean. The fans made us ruin Wally instead of just sideline him. What were we supposed to do, listen to the fanbase and not continue to push Barry at the expense of Wally?"
This is one of my biggest issues with modern DC. Whereas Marvel seems to find a way to incorporate both Cap and Falcon, Tony and Rhodey, Logan and Laura, Hulk and Cho, Carol and Kamala, Peter and Miles, etc. etc. DC goes out of their way to feature only one version of a character at a time. It's like the name of the superhero is more important than the character in the suit.
I feel like this has always been a distinction between Marvel and DC. Marvel is about the people in the suits. DC is about the suits the people wear. Marvel has been about the people. DC has been about the heroes.