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Fantastic Four #33

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Cable
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Fantastic Four #33

Post by Cable » 20 Jun 2021, 12:55

You are cordially invited to the wedding of Victor von Doom and Zora Vukovic!

Full Spoilers:
Spoiler: show
The night before their wedding Doom and Victorious are having dinner. She feels unworthy of the marriage and he guesses this is because she is not Latverian but rather Symkarian. He reassures her it is not an issue since he annexed the neighboring country. He removes his mask as a sign of trust in her and they toast their union. Meanwhile the Fantastic Four debate going to the wedding and eventually decide to since Doom has promised to forgive all past transgressions of his guests. They can start over with a clean slate. Johnny calls Sky to invite her as his guest but she purposefully does not answer. The FF travel to Latveria and are greeted by Doom; Sue Storm has some words with him over scheduling his wedding day on Reed and Sue's exact anniversary. He apologizes and sends them to their rooms. Johnny Storm sneaks out at night though to confront Zora. He is attacked by a robotic guard before he gets to her but realizes it is being controlled by her. He says he cares about her and asks if this marriage is what she wants but she just reaffirms her loyalty to her homeland and blows him off. As this is happening the wedding rings are being delivered to Reed and Sue. She knows this is a prime opportunity and they could bug the jewelry or something. Reed decides they will act in good faith and do nothing. Doom is actually listening in on them through the rings and after seeing their sincerity he tells his scientists to cease working on their many projects intended to destroy the FF. There is one called the Armagedron that is so unstable though that he will see to it himself later. The next day is the wedding and there are many esteemed guests including Black Panther and Namor, guaranteeing peace between their lands and Latveria. The ceremony begins but as the vows emphasize the sacred bond of trust, Zora finds herself unable to go through with it without revealing her secret to Doom: she admits on the altar that she had sex with Johnny Storm. As you might guess, this results in Doctor Doom blowing everything up. The heroes prepare to defend themselves but suddenly find some means of mental manipulation has been used to immobilize them all. Doom orders the robotic guards to execute every guest.
Let me tell you that this issue is worth it just for Namor's reaction to the events at the altar!

I have been disappointed in Slott's FF run but this wedding was pretty good (though Silva's design for Zora's gown was too simple imo). The personal drama throughout is pretty delicious in that tawdry soap opera way. And I actually hope Sky does return home because that whole plot never worked for me. Curious to see how things wrap up here because while obviously Doom has to be defeated, he is actually kind of right to be so mad!
Best Comics of Week 28

X-titles: Excalibur #22 by Tini Howard (3) and Marcus To (3)
Non-X titles: Extreme Carnage--Scream by Clay Chapman (1) and Chris Mooneyham (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic this year

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Crutey Anth
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Crutey Anth » 20 Jun 2021, 19:34

I’m a Slott fan (I honestly don’t get the hate he got over Spider-man etc...and the negativity for this run)

He does a great FF, putting the soap opera, family etc all at the centre of it.

I wonder if this was Doom’s plan all along or if he just has failsafes in case it went wrong

I’m not sure if Doom has a right to be mad——sure it’s understandable but, it happened before he and his wife got together.

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 20 Jun 2021, 22:58

Doom has zero room to be mad. He's a murderer and a tyrant. I find the FF's recurrent humoring of Doom to be illogical and in poor taste. He murdered Cassandra Lang. He sent the FF to hell, giving Franklin PTSD. He killed several Wakandans while destabilizing their country. The continued mutual respect is ridiculous imo.

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by tokenBG1009 » 20 Jun 2021, 23:52

What I've never understood about Doom is he gets away with a lot of shit due to "Diplomatic Immunity" and all I can think is... who cares about Doom's diplomatic immunity? Does Latveria have that many political allies that would rush to his aid that all the aggrieved nations of the world couldn't tell to sit down? Is it really some sign that diplomatic immunity isn't respected when the person arrested is a mass murderer? It's not like Doom has unpaid parking tickets. Dude's a terrorist. It's almost as bad as "Joker is Ambassador to Iran so Batman can't do anything."
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Cable » 21 Jun 2021, 00:29

Crutey Anth wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 19:34
I’m a Slott fan (I honestly don’t get the hate he got over Spider-man etc...and the negativity for this run)

He does a great FF, putting the soap opera, family etc all at the centre of it.

I wonder if this was Doom’s plan all along or if he just has failsafes in case it went wrong

I’m not sure if Doom has a right to be mad——sure it’s understandable but, it happened before he and his wife got together.
I am a Slott fan as well. He did a great Spidey run, his Silver Surfer was amazing, and he had some good ideas in his Iron Man volume as well. But his Fantastic Four has not worked for me. Technically Doom was 'reset' at the end of Bendis's run but it is clear that Slott wants to write him in a way that essentially reverts him to "Stan Lee era" villain. Then you have the huge Spyre retcon which if you are going to do something that big it should have a good payoff and I didn't feel like it ever really did. Throw in the odd removal of Franklin's mutant status and overall the run has been a series of misses.

Perhaps understandable is the better word, nobody would take it well that happening at the altar! But I feel Doom would have been mad regardless if they were getting married considering his right-hand person slept with his sworn enemy. He was devoted to their destruction and she knew that.
Best Comics of Week 28

X-titles: Excalibur #22 by Tini Howard (3) and Marcus To (3)
Non-X titles: Extreme Carnage--Scream by Clay Chapman (1) and Chris Mooneyham (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic this year

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Jun 2021, 03:14

I get where you’re coming from Cable…like it’s ridiculous imo to NOT see his reaction as understandable. You can talk all you want about all his past deeds pre-Bendis’s clean slate wipe but at the core of the issue is that his soon to be wife slept with another man before marrying him…like that’s basically the plot of The Best Man and Morris Chestnut’s character beat the s*** out of Taye Diggs’ character and THEY were at least friends.
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by P-90 » 21 Jun 2021, 10:10

The silliness of the 'intended soul bonded' thing aside I don't think Johnny has been portrayed very well in this run, he's a flirt yeah but as far as I can remember he's always been devoted to his partners and he's never knowingly been a cheater and while he's never been a genius cheating on someone you have a mind link with is hugely stupid, as is 'sneaking' into someone chambers by going full Human Torch. I understand he may have been reeling emotionally from the actions of Lyja but it's all pretty dumb (let's face it if Johnny was female and Lyja was male the manipulative history of their relationship would been seen much differently)

Doom's reaction was a bit much to be honest, yeah he's Doom so his Herald sleeping with Johnny would be seen as an insult but he hadn't yet proposed to her so she was single at the time. I'd would have much preferred if, when told he would have calmly stated that he knew, that he knows all that occurs within his own walls.

Alicia mind controlling people using her father's clay? well I know she's done it before but it will never not be morally questionable.
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 21 Jun 2021, 15:18

Blackcyclops wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 03:14
I get where you’re coming from Cable…like it’s ridiculous imo to NOT see his reaction as understandable. You can talk all you want about all his past deeds pre-Bendis’s clean slate wipe but at the core of the issue is that his soon to be wife slept with another man before marrying him…like that’s basically the plot of The Best Man and Morris Chestnut’s character beat the s*** out of Taye Diggs’ character and THEY were at least friends.
You know what kind of people become violent over that sort of thing? Narcissists. Doom wasn't dating this woman. She was, in effect, a servant. He's angry because it was a blow to his ego. He directed his anger towards the people who witnessed his embarrassment. It doesn't have anything to do with love for his bride to be. At its core, this is about doom's malignant narcissism and seeing people as property.

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Cable » 21 Jun 2021, 15:39

You are welcome to your interpretation (Doom is no doubt a narcissist) but I think there is a reason Doom tried to reassure her in the opening scene, why he showed her his real face, and why the issue of trust was hammered over and over in the issue. It goes beyond seeing her as 'property' and seeing her as someone he could rely on. Instead she was intimate with one of his worst foes and kept it from him despite him exposing his own vulnerabilities earlier.
P-90 wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 10:10

Doom's reaction was a bit much to be honest, yeah he's Doom so his Herald sleeping with Johnny would be seen as an insult but he hadn't yet proposed to her so she was single at the time. I'd would have much preferred if, when told he would have calmly stated that he knew, that he knows all that occurs within his own walls.

Alicia mind controlling people using her father's clay? well I know she's done it before but it will never not be morally questionable.
Yeah I think it is safe to say slaughtering all the guests is an overreaction lol. Speaking of knowing things though, I wonder if his comment about Alicia is an indication that he knows what is going on with her or if it is just more pettiness (like the date of his wedding!)
Best Comics of Week 28

X-titles: Excalibur #22 by Tini Howard (3) and Marcus To (3)
Non-X titles: Extreme Carnage--Scream by Clay Chapman (1) and Chris Mooneyham (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic this year

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 21 Jun 2021, 15:44

Basically…
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 21 Jun 2021, 20:19

Cable wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 15:39
You are welcome to your interpretation (Doom is no doubt a narcissist) but I think there is a reason Doom tried to reassure her in the opening scene, why he showed her his real face, and why the issue of trust was hammered over and over in the issue. It goes beyond seeing her as 'property' and seeing her as someone he could rely on. Instead she was intimate with one of his worst foes and kept it from him despite him exposing his own vulnerabilities earlier.
P-90 wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 10:10

Doom's reaction was a bit much to be honest, yeah he's Doom so his Herald sleeping with Johnny would be seen as an insult but he hadn't yet proposed to her so she was single at the time. I'd would have much preferred if, when told he would have calmly stated that he knew, that he knows all that occurs within his own walls.

Alicia mind controlling people using her father's clay? well I know she's done it before but it will never not be morally questionable.
Yeah I think it is safe to say slaughtering all the guests is an overreaction lol. Speaking of knowing things though, I wonder if his comment about Alicia is an indication that he knows what is going on with her or if it is just more pettiness (like the date of his wedding!)

She wasn't intimate with Johnny. They had sex and she literally kicked him out of bed. Doom wasn't dating Zora. It was his arrogance that allowed her needs to go unnoticed. It probably never occurred to him that anyone he would choose as a bride would even notice other men. She was surprised by the proposal. So she wasn't cheating on him. And she told him about Johnny out of loyalty. Knowing doom, it's the potential embarrassment that caused him to rage. This is the same writer who had the Invisible Woman use her powers to physically expose Doom to the world. My viewpoint could be completely wrong. But it is based in the context of the run and a rudimentary knowledge of cluster b personalities.

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by tokenBG1009 » 23 Jun 2021, 15:23

1. One of his rivals.
2. Kept it a secret.
3. Revealed it, not just on the wedding day, but at the altar...

It's only PARTIALLY that she slept with Johnny and more how much of a fool he made her look in front of everyone. I highly doubt Doom expected her to be a virgin on their wedding night. It's the "who" and the "How it was revealed" that's an issue for him.

If she'd told him earlier he'd probably have still raged, but not "MURDER EVERYONE WHO HAS WITNESSED MY SHAME!" raged.
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 23 Jun 2021, 20:57

tokenBG1009 wrote:
23 Jun 2021, 15:23
1. One of his rivals.
How so? Wasn't he invited to the wedding?


2. Kept it a secret.


Literally did not keep it a secret

3. Revealed it, not just on the wedding day, but at the altar...


Yeah because it would have been unfair to not give doom a chance to back out. Imagine if she had revealed it during the honeymoon.


It's only PARTIALLY that she slept with Johnny and more how much of a fool he made her look in front of everyone. I highly doubt Doom expected her to be a virgin on their wedding night. It's the "who" and the "How it was revealed" that's an issue for him.

If she'd told him earlier he'd probably have still raged, but not "MURDER EVERYONE WHO HAS WITNESSED MY SHAME!" raged.


Ok. So let's look at it from Zora's perspective. A cult figure with almost absolute control over her environment proposes. In what scenario could she decline the offer? What would have happened if she had said no, keeping in mind what latverians have been imprisoned or executed for in the past? He's already leveraged his position to take a wife. So there's an element of fear and an imbalance of power to take into account. Even Johnny was hiding. Can you blame her for revealing this secret when there are other people around? If doom is so big on honesty, why didn't he mention fathering a child with Amara Perrera?

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Jun 2021, 11:27

Because the child didn’t survive to term and isn’t relevant to the storyline but go on…lol
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by tokenBG1009 » 24 Jun 2021, 14:25

1. The Fantastic Four aren't Doom's rivals... because he invited them to the wedding. So the last sixty years of comics didn't happen? How does that even make sense? He was planning to kill them until Reed proved to be the bigger man.

2. This is mostly a "What do you define as a secret?" type of thing. I don't think anyone has any obligation to list their previous sexual encounters, unless it's under very specific circumstances. If I were single and started dating someone who had sex with Richard Spencer, David Duke, or Ann Coulter I'd REALLY want to know that.

3. Considering the character arc of Doom over the last few years? Who the hell knows what he'd do anymore. Dude's had less consistency to his character than Mercury's form. If she felt so terrible about this that she NEEDED to tell him then there are much better times and places and all of them are before you're standing in front of a crowd.
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 24 Jun 2021, 16:45

Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 11:27
Because the child didn’t survive to term and isn’t relevant to the storyline but go on…lol
So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by tokenBG1009 » 24 Jun 2021, 17:41

Holland Oates wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 16:45
Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 11:27
Because the child didn’t survive to term and isn’t relevant to the storyline but go on…lol
So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?
They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 24 Jun 2021, 21:10

tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41
Holland Oates wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 16:45
Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 11:27
Because the child didn’t survive to term and isn’t relevant to the storyline but go on…lol
So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?
They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
This made me laugh actually out loud…
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 25 Jun 2021, 01:59

tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41
Holland Oates wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 16:45
Blackcyclops wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 11:27
Because the child didn’t survive to term and isn’t relevant to the storyline but go on…lol
So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?
They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Cable » 25 Jun 2021, 02:04

Holland Oates wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 01:59
tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41
Holland Oates wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 16:45


So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?
They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.
Lol nobody is justifying his behavior. There is a difference between saying "I understand why Osama bin Laden hated the United States" and "Bin Laden was right to do 9/11".
Best Comics of Week 28

X-titles: Excalibur #22 by Tini Howard (3) and Marcus To (3)
Non-X titles: Extreme Carnage--Scream by Clay Chapman (1) and Chris Mooneyham (1)

In parentheses number of times creator has had best comic this year

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Jun 2021, 06:05

Lmao
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by tokenBG1009 » 25 Jun 2021, 11:36

Holland Oates wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 01:59
tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41
Holland Oates wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 16:45


So you agree that previous hook-ups prior to Zora accepting Doom's hand in marriage don't matter?
They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.
I kinda had a feeling you thought people were going "Doom was right!" and that's definitely not happening. It's not even "this is a completely normal reaction" it's just "No, I get why he's mad."

Doom is a piece of shit and his narcissistic personality is driving him to seek vengeance on everyone who has witnessed his embarrassment. Dude's probably my most hated Marvel villain because of shit like this. This entire issue was an exercise in Doom stroking and I hope the next issue ends with something better than "See, I told you Doom couldn't be trusted" and instead sees Zora tell Doom off for his absolutely shitty behavior.
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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 25 Jun 2021, 16:51

tokenBG1009 wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 11:36
Holland Oates wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 01:59
tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41


They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.
I kinda had a feeling you thought people were going "Doom was right!" and that's definitely not happening. It's not even "this is a completely normal reaction" it's just "No, I get why he's mad."

Doom is a piece of shit and his narcissistic personality is driving him to seek vengeance on everyone who has witnessed his embarrassment. Dude's probably my most hated Marvel villain because of shit like this. This entire issue was an exercise in Doom stroking and I hope the next issue ends with something better than "See, I told you Doom couldn't be trusted" and instead sees Zora tell Doom off for his absolutely shitty behavior.
Oh then I 100% agree with what you said

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Holland Oates » 25 Jun 2021, 17:01

Cable wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 02:04
Holland Oates wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 01:59
tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41


They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.
Lol nobody is justifying his behavior. There is a difference between saying "I understand why Osama bin Laden hated the United States" and "Bin Laden was right to do 9/11".
Part of the issue is that I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to the quote below and the assertion that there was some issue with a woman sleeping with some dude she wasn't going to marry. As if it were an affront to the man she was going to marry. Dress it up however you like. Johnny and Zora sealed the deal prior to Doom proposing. I guess that I can't personally understand where Doom is coming from. They weren't going steady so to speak.

"like it’s ridiculous imo to NOT see his reaction as understandable. You can talk all you want about all his past deeds pre-Bendis’s clean slate wipe but at the core of the issue is that his soon to be wife slept with another man before marrying him…like that’s basically the plot of The Best Man and Morris Chestnut’s character beat the s*** out of Taye Diggs’ character and THEY were at least friends."

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Re: Fantastic Four #33

Post by Blackcyclops » 25 Jun 2021, 18:18

Cable wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 02:04
Holland Oates wrote:
25 Jun 2021, 01:59
tokenBG1009 wrote:
24 Jun 2021, 17:41


They don't. Who does though. Do you really think Doom would be upset if she'd previously slept with Jake from State Farm?
I think that he would have Jake from State Farm, whom I've met, murdered or imprisoned. Because Doom is an extremely petty individual. He's threatening to kill a bunch of people because they witnessed his embarrassment. And there are people justifying his behavior in this thread.
Lol nobody is justifying his behavior. There is a difference between saying "I understand why Osama bin Laden hated the United States" and "Bin Laden was right to do 9/11".

Quoted for emphasis since somebody quoted me without quoting me and Cable more eloquently stated my point.
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