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Avengers #44

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Blackcyclops
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Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Apr 2021, 13:23

Echo is the Phoenix...and I can say, after reading her old stories in DD, I think she is the most fitting choice. And I’m actually shocked Bendis didn’t think of this first...the PF basically is leaving the X-Men alone, it’s with another woman and the story potential for Echo is pretty wide open. Cool...

Oh yeah the rest of you hated it lol but I enjoyed this last issue alot.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 07 Apr 2021, 17:30

Is there a reason the Phoenix has been given the to Avengers team instead of X-Men? Like, in universe, why did it essentially leave mutants when they're basically the entire history of it?

I'm fine with new ideas, but it's kind of like giving Batman a weakness to Kryptonite. Moving something ingrained in one story to another.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Apr 2021, 18:36

Well there were mutants in the contest to be it’s host, after Jean essentially told it “leave me and mine alone”.

The PF was drawn to effort by Moon Knight as a weapon for his Moon God to supposedly stop Mephisto’s plot. Moon Knight wielded it (or really it used him) for a bit until he basically gave up and got his ass beat by Thor. The PF then took up residence on Earth to seek out a new host. Jean explicitly stated it didn’t want her, that it wanted something new. After having it’s pick of alot of various characters, it chose Echo and it gave a rationale for choosing her. Now it doesn’t appear that Echo will be an Avenger but I guess she is Avengers adjacent.

Out of universe, giving it to Echo, an Indigenous person whose culture has a history with a “thunderbird”, gives a major change to a woman of color while not being used in the x-lore again.
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Gremlin » 07 Apr 2021, 21:03

I got the feeling a while back that Marvel felt that there were stories to be told with the PF but that it needed to be away from the X-Men. It was getting hard to expand on the PF legacy if the story constantly revolves around the X-Men and Jean Grey. It was also a key thing for Jean to rid herself of the Phoenix in a bid to develop the character. She and the PF were so interlinked it was hard to come up with a new and unique story that would expand their characters rather than tread water.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 07 Apr 2021, 21:41

And while it’s no certainty that Echo will definitely be featured in this book (so far, I haven’t seen any indication she will BUT they tried to keep her reveal under wraps), like I said empowering this particular character in this fashion does allow a really different potential turn here.

Echo is deaf.
Echo is Native.
Echo has a very different history from Jean.
Echo isn’t a psychic, so her orientation toward conflict is different.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 08 Apr 2021, 15:17

For my own curiosity, I had to figure out what tribe Echo is descended from. She's Cheyenne and... they don't really have a strong tie to the Thunderbird. One of their gods, Nonoma, is SOMETIMES depicted as a thunderbird but it's not really the same tie that it has to the Wichita or Sioux tribes.

(Though brief research I also couldn't find much linking the Thunderbird to the Apache either so... at least there's consistency?)

This may seem nitpicky, but in an era where racial and culture diversity and sensitivity is seen as more important in storytelling there's something to be said about trying to represent a diverse culture as a monolith. It's similar to trying to paint Anansi as a figure important to all of Africa or the picturesque serpent like Dragons as being important to all SE Asians.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Apr 2021, 15:46

I think that’s an unfair comparison...although, all cultures have a trickster god character, just not the Spider.

The Cheyenne people, as you say do have a Thunderbird like deity in their belief system. It’s not something made up from whole cloth and Echo expresses something similar to it in her internal exposition.
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Holland Oates
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Holland Oates » 08 Apr 2021, 17:22

I think they picked Echo to give her some visibility prior to her appearance in the Hawkeye series.

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 08 Apr 2021, 17:36

Holland Oates wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 17:22
I think they picked Echo to give her some visibility prior to her appearance in the Hawkeye series.

I would say that helped certaibly but it’s not like that’s the only way to give her visibility. It’s any number of ways to give her a push (hell they could’ve made her a mutant and threw her into a X-book, given how well they’re selling right now lol).

They could’ve stuck her anywhere mainstream to give her a push...plus part of the reason she was picked to be in Hawkeye was prolly because of her identity and diverse background, along with her being a pretty cool and easy to translate Bendis creation (plus she was Ronin too, so connection to hawkeye).

It’s usually more than one factor that goes into any one decision like that...it’s not that simple.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 08 Apr 2021, 20:21

I hate the corporate synergy talk whenever a character is coming to some promince. Wanda, Vision, and Spectrum didn't get much appearance in comics before their series came out. When was the last time Clint or Kate did anything important?

I haven't been around Avengers lately, but did Sam or Bucky start headlining comics recently? How's Sharon Carter? How much has Loki done over in Thor or King in Black?

Aaron probably picked Echo because why not? Phoenix has been hosted by everyone else lately. Hopefully he has a story to tell.
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Holland Oates
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Holland Oates » 13 Apr 2021, 19:40

tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
I hate the corporate synergy talk whenever a character is coming to some promince. Wanda, Vision, and Spectrum didn't get much appearance in comics before their series came out. When was the last time Clint or Kate did anything important?
You're looking in the wrong direction. The comparison shouldn't be between Echo and Wanda. You know who has resurfaced recently in the same book as Echo? Agatha Harkness. It's simply not time to push Kate. And it's hardly necessary since Hawkeye is already well known. Kate gets a bump from being next to Clint and being associated with the Young Avengers; who you should expect to see more of once they decide what they want to do with those characters on the big or small screen. Marvel is a business. Synergy is not a bad word from their standpoint. Do you think that it was a coincidence that a Ronin mini series came out around the time of End Game? It wasn't because people were demanding for the return of Clint in that costume.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
I haven't been around Avengers lately, but did Sam or Bucky start headlining comics recently? How's Sharon Carter? How much has Loki done over in Thor or King in Black?
Funny you should mention it. Sam and Bucky did get a book with Zemo as the villain. Sharon appears regularly in captain America's book and now has super powers. Loki isn't some character struggling for name recognition. He gets his own show because he's a proven commodity.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
Aaron probably picked Echo because why not? Phoenix has been hosted by everyone else lately. Hopefully he has a story to tell.
So the pitch was "why not Echo?" I'd bet anything that Aaron just wanted some characters to fight. They decided on the Phoenix needing to choose a new host as the means to get those characters clashing. Cho probably asked that Shanna the She-Devil be involved. And then some editor handed him a list of characters they were looking to promote and he chose Echo. Everything else about his run has been super random. That makes me doubt that he had any concrete plans for Echo.

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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 13 Apr 2021, 23:07

Well to be fair to both you guys, since neither has an insight what really happened (speculation at best), let’s call it even lol
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Cable
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Cable » 14 Apr 2021, 12:57

Echo becoming the Phoenix was the best part of a story with mostly bad parts. I was glad they decided to push a lesser known character rather than give it to one of the A-listers.

The Phoenix being Thor's mother on the other hand is so egregious that it destroys nearly all goodwill Aaron gained on his own Thor run.

Holland Oates wrote:
13 Apr 2021, 19:40
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
I hate the corporate synergy talk whenever a character is coming to some promince. Wanda, Vision, and Spectrum didn't get much appearance in comics before their series came out. When was the last time Clint or Kate did anything important?
You're looking in the wrong direction. The comparison shouldn't be between Echo and Wanda. You know who has resurfaced recently in the same book as Echo? Agatha Harkness. It's simply not time to push Kate. And it's hardly necessary since Hawkeye is already well known. Kate gets a bump from being next to Clint and being associated with the Young Avengers; who you should expect to see more of once they decide what they want to do with those characters on the big or small screen. Marvel is a business. Synergy is not a bad word from their standpoint. Do you think that it was a coincidence that a Ronin mini series came out around the time of End Game? It wasn't because people were demanding for the return of Clint in that costume.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
I haven't been around Avengers lately, but did Sam or Bucky start headlining comics recently? How's Sharon Carter? How much has Loki done over in Thor or King in Black?
Funny you should mention it. Sam and Bucky did get a book with Zemo as the villain. Sharon appears regularly in captain America's book and now has super powers. Loki isn't some character struggling for name recognition. He gets his own show because he's a proven commodity.
tokenBG1009 wrote:
08 Apr 2021, 20:21
Aaron probably picked Echo because why not? Phoenix has been hosted by everyone else lately. Hopefully he has a story to tell.
So the pitch was "why not Echo?" I'd bet anything that Aaron just wanted some characters to fight. They decided on the Phoenix needing to choose a new host as the means to get those characters clashing. Cho probably asked that Shanna the She-Devil be involved. And then some editor handed him a list of characters they were looking to promote and he chose Echo. Everything else about his run has been super random. That makes me doubt that he had any concrete plans for Echo.
Duggan recently posted about how he wrote a story involving Madripoor and it came out around the same time as Falcon and Winter Soldier featuring Madripoor and this was a surprise to him. Sometimes things really are a coincidence; there isn't really any way to know unless we get some inside information.
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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 14 Apr 2021, 16:28

@Cable: given how highly I hold that run, I couldn’t disagree more. It’s not a reveal I would’ve went with. But given the vagueness and the fact that the idea is that his mom is the host and not the PF itself, I’m at least curious about where it’s going. But then again I don’t hate this overall run like you, so our mileage clearly varies.
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 14 Apr 2021, 21:35

Isn't Thor's power meant to essentially come from the fact he's the child of Odin and an extremely powerful actual goddess, Gaia? I'd probably prefer if the Phoenix actually was his mother. Then we could start ideas of him reconnecting with his OTHER sister Rachel Summers. We could even add him to the Summers family tree!
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by comicsfan666 » 15 Apr 2021, 10:49

tokenBG1009 wrote:
14 Apr 2021, 21:35
Isn't Thor's power meant to essentially come from the fact he's the child of Odin and an extremely powerful actual goddess, Gaia? I'd probably prefer if the Phoenix actually was his mother. Then we could start ideas of him reconnecting with his OTHER sister Rachel Summers. We could even add him to the Summers family tree!
Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?

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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 15 Apr 2021, 12:36

comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 10:49
tokenBG1009 wrote:
14 Apr 2021, 21:35
Isn't Thor's power meant to essentially come from the fact he's the child of Odin and an extremely powerful actual goddess, Gaia? I'd probably prefer if the Phoenix actually was his mother. Then we could start ideas of him reconnecting with his OTHER sister Rachel Summers. We could even add him to the Summers family tree!
Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?
He was teasing lol...because of how complicated their family tree is and the long gestating rumor that Rachel is really the child of the PF and not actually Jean.
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tokenBG1009
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 15 Apr 2021, 14:17

Blackcyclops wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 12:36
comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 10:49
tokenBG1009 wrote:
14 Apr 2021, 21:35
Isn't Thor's power meant to essentially come from the fact he's the child of Odin and an extremely powerful actual goddess, Gaia? I'd probably prefer if the Phoenix actually was his mother. Then we could start ideas of him reconnecting with his OTHER sister Rachel Summers. We could even add him to the Summers family tree!
Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?
He was teasing lol...because of how complicated their family tree is and the long gestating rumor that Rachel is really the child of the PF and not actually Jean.
You gotta admit, it'd be pretty amazing. Thor showing up at family BBQs on the moon.
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comicsfan666
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by comicsfan666 » 15 Apr 2021, 14:29

Blackcyclops wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 12:36
comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 10:49
tokenBG1009 wrote:
14 Apr 2021, 21:35
Isn't Thor's power meant to essentially come from the fact he's the child of Odin and an extremely powerful actual goddess, Gaia? I'd probably prefer if the Phoenix actually was his mother. Then we could start ideas of him reconnecting with his OTHER sister Rachel Summers. We could even add him to the Summers family tree!
Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?
He was teasing lol...because of how complicated their family tree is and the long gestating rumor that Rachel is really the child of the PF and not actually Jean.
I got the teasing, but that still would not make Phoenix and Thor Summers:s.

It would just make Rachel a not-a-Summers too.

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Blackcyclops
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by Blackcyclops » 15 Apr 2021, 14:39

comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 14:29
Blackcyclops wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 12:36
comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 10:49


Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?
He was teasing lol...because of how complicated their family tree is and the long gestating rumor that Rachel is really the child of the PF and not actually Jean.
I got the teasing, but that still would not make Phoenix and Thor Summers:s.

It would just make Rachel a not-a-Summers too.
Well, I think you’re taking it too literal, but most Summers family trees on websites and stuff include the adjacent family members like the Greys and stuff...plus, it was a joke.
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by tokenBG1009 » 15 Apr 2021, 14:40

comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 14:29
Blackcyclops wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 12:36
comicsfan666 wrote:
15 Apr 2021, 10:49


Since when is the Phoenix a Summers?
He was teasing lol...because of how complicated their family tree is and the long gestating rumor that Rachel is really the child of the PF and not actually Jean.
I got the teasing, but that still would not make Phoenix and Thor Summers:s.

It would just make Rachel a not-a-Summers too.
I guess a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it.

1. It was a joke.
2. Rachel would still be a Summers as her father is Cyclops, probably.
3. Rachel would bring her newly discovered brother to meet her family.
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Re: Avengers #44

Post by BardicOne » 16 Apr 2021, 17:54

I don't like Cavegirl Phoenix Host and the Phoenix being within a country mile of Thor and his ancestry.

I am tired of PF stories in general.

That said, this arc was as a whole as good as this "PF Host Tourney" concept was going to be. Echo was a great choice of Host.
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